Please help me understand the famous wage gap difference

[Joel thakkar]

"women working full-time earned 77 cents for every dollar earned by men working full time" - This is a famous line used by many people addressing wage gap. I know that this study was done by BLS but i want to know if they considered following points


1) Does this report consider that full time men work 8.5 hours instead of 7.9 hours (for full time women). I am just talking about full time workers (35 hours per week or more).

Source (BLS - 2013 Report) - http://www.bls.gov/news.release/atus.nr0.htm

Thus, a daily 0.6 hours more work translate to 3 hours per week more work.

2) Does this report take other worker's benefits into the consideration (like vacation, sick pay, maternity leave etc)?

3) Does this report consider the scenario where workers opted for a low paying job for exchanging the benefits like low commute time, flexible work hours etc?

4) Does this report consider the scenario where workers opted for harsh-working hours (like night -shift, weekend shifts) in exchange of more wage?

5) Does this report consider the percentage of men/women doing overtime work? Also specifically does this report consider how many average hour of overtime is done by men and women? (Overtime usually starts from 41st hour of the week)

[NYC_SKP]

1. it's not a contest. nt.

fairness for every fuking human being, that's what i want.

[Joel thakkar]

2. Thats all i want too

and i think above factors should be considered for that.

[Joel thakkar]

4. Thank you for

not answering the real questions and posting not related things.

[Joel thakkar]

6. Still running away from real questions...

Anyways, it is worthless to talk to you...bye...

[NYC_SKP]

12. The study doesn't draw conclusions one might like for it to. It's just raw data.

Read the methodology section, here's just part of it:

Survey methodology

Data collection for the ATUS began in January 2003. Sample cases
for the survey are selected monthly, and interviews are conducted
continuously throughout the year. In 2012, approximately 12,500
individuals were interviewed. Estimates are released annually.

ATUS sample households are chosen from the households that
completed their eighth (final) interview for the Current Population
Survey (CPS), the nation's monthly household labor force survey. ATUS
sample households are selected to ensure that estimates will be
nationally representative.

One individual age 15 or over is randomly chosen from each sampled
household. This "designated person" is interviewed by telephone once
about his or her activities on the day before the interview--the "diary
day."

All ATUS interviews are conducted using Computer Assisted Telephone
Interviewing. Procedures are in place to collect information from the
small number of households that did not provide a telephone number
during the CPS interview.

ATUS designated persons are preassigned a day of the week about
which to report. Preassignment is designed to reduce variability in
response rates across the week and to allow oversampling of weekend
days so that accurate weekend day measures can be developed. Interviews
occur on the day following the assigned day. For example, a person
assigned to report about a Monday would be contacted on the following
Tuesday. Ten percent of designated persons are assigned to report about
each of the five weekdays. Twenty-five percent are assigned to report
about each weekend day. Households are called for up to 8 consecutive
weeks (for example, 8 Tuesdays) in order to secure an interview.

About the questionnaire

In the time diary portion of the ATUS interview, survey respondents
sequentially report activities they did between 4 a.m. on the day
before the interview ("yesterday&quot until 4 a.m. on the day of the
interview. For each activity, respondents are asked how long the
activity lasted. For activities other than personal care activities
(such as sleeping and grooming), interviewers also ask respondents
where they were and who was in the room with them (if at home) or who
accompanied them (if away from home). If respondents report doing
more than one activity at a time, they are asked to identify which one
was the "main" (primary) activity. If none can be identified, then
the interviewer records the first activity mentioned. After completing
the time diary, interviewers ask respondents additional questions to
clearly identify work, volunteering, and secondary childcare activities.
Secondary childcare is defined as having a child under age 13 in one's
care while doing other activities. Questions to identify eldercare
providers and activities done as eldercare were added to the survey in
2011.

In addition, the ATUS includes an update of the household
composition information from the last CPS interview (2 to 5 months
prior to the ATUS interview) and the employment status information
of the respondent and his or her spouse or unmarried partner. For
respondents who became employed or changed jobs between the last CPS
interview and the ATUS interview, information also is collected on
industry, occupation, class of worker, and earnings. For those who
are unemployed or on layoff, CPS questions on job search activities
are asked. Those who report being on layoff are asked if or when they
expect to be recalled to work. Finally, a question about current
school enrollment status is asked of all respondents ages 15 to 49.

After completing the interview, primary activity descriptions are
assigned a single 6-digit code using the ATUS Coding Lexicon. The 3-
tier coding system consists of 17 major activity categories, each with
multiple second- and third-tier subcategories. These coding lexicon
categories are then combined into composite categories for publication,
such as in this news release. Descriptions of categories shown in this
release can be found in the Major activity category definitions section
of this Technical Note. The 2012 ATUS Coding Lexicon can be accessed at

[Major Nikon]

8. Is it fair to pay someone more pay for more work?

[NYC_SKP]

11. Women work ~93% as many hours as men in the survey. Not 77%

In case that's what you are referring to.

[Major Nikon]

13. Is it fair to pay those represented by a union the same as those who aren't?

[NYC_SKP]

15. My only experience is with construction and education. I would say "yes", however.

In education, all teachers in the organization had to be union members.

In construction, I never belonged to the union but was paid union scale or prevailing wage.

You're question is pretty general, and it's hard to answer without more specific context.

I think the prevailing wage rules in many government contracts are fair.

[Major Nikon]

18. Men are more likely to be represented by unions

This accounts for 4% of the pay gap. More hours was one other factor. Industry selection is another. Overtime work is another. Tenure on the job is another. Jobs that favor fringe benefits over pay is another. Selecting occupations that have less risk of physical injury is another. All of these factors disparately affect women in regards to raw weekly wages and have nothing to do with illegal discrimination. If you read the fine print in the study authored by the AAUW (which is a feminist organization), you'll find that even they admit the unexplained portion of the pay gap is 7% once socially acceptable factors have been applied. Also within that 7% you'll find factors which are difficult, if not impossible to quantify. Just one of those factors is illegal discrimination. So whatever portion of the pay gap which is due to illegal discrimination is nowhere near the 23% figure you are quoting which makes the figure useless for public policy decisions.

[lumberjack_jeff]

14. You're right. This only explains about 40% of the pay gap.

Another 40% is explained by occupational choice.

Women tend to choose lower paying careers for nonmonetary reasons.

[NYC_SKP]

16. Two cultural factors come to mind that I think are applicable to the matter of "choice".

First, stereotypes are hard to break and are enduring. Popular literature and media have long portray women in different, lower paying, roles than men and these impact our self expectations and choices we make.

Second, access in many higher end careers are, I suspect, controlled by a "mens club" mentality which is probably perpetuated somewhat by differentiated expectations of women versus men in terms of their ability and fierceness (it doesn't have to be valid to exist).

Also, a third factor that could be nature/nurture, is that women and men are wired differently and prefer and/or are more well suited to different sets of careers. If it happens that women are more naturally capable of working with children, for example, then it might be natural that they be more likely to enter the teaching profession.

[lumberjack_jeff]

17. I could believe that a men's club mentality may exist in some fields.

But we're not talking about law or medicine or banking or engineering. We're talking about construction, mining, logging, oil field roughnecks and commercial fishing.

For the education required, those jobs tend to have relatively high pay. I don't doubt that there are men in those fields that believe that because of the safety issues, it's no place for women.

Regardless, moving the needle on the pay gap in a major way will require young women to make different choices.

Alternatively, I suppose men could begin moving into fields with nonmonetary reward and work fewer hours. I guess that's what I did.

[lumberjack_jeff]

10. No it's not a contest, it's policy.

If we're being asked to support policies to fix problems, it's important to know the nature and magnitude of the problem.

[Major Nikon]

7. It's important to understand what the BLS is reporting

They are reporting what the raw gender wage gap is for weekly pay of full time workers (>35 hours). It doesn't take into account the actual number of hours worked, the amount of overtime worked, the risk of physical injury of the job or any other conditions of employment, union representation, gaps in employment, experience, tenure, the industry involved, or the preference for fringe benefits in lieu of pay.

Whatever portion of the gender pay gap that's due to illegal discrimination is almost impossible to measure, so economists factor out that which is relatively easy to measure. The Consad meta-analysis is the most comprehensive gender wage gap study we have, and puts the actual unexplained portion of the pay gap at between 4.8 and 7.1 percent. Within that 4.8 to 7.1% you have a number of other factors which are difficult to measure, one of which is illegal gender discrimination.

Additional portions of the raw gender wage gap are attributable to other explanatory factors that have been identified in the existing economic literature, but cannot be analyzed satisfactorily using only data from the 2007 CPS. Those factors include, for example, health insurance, other fringe benefits, and detailed features of overtime work, which are sources of wage adjustments that compensate specific groups of workers for benefits or duties that disproportionately affect them. Analysis of such compensating wage adjustments generally requires data from several independent and, often, specialized sources.

So when the question is 'how much of the gender wage gap is due to illegal discrimination?' The answer is, very little.

[lumberjack_jeff]

9. "No" to all your questions.

It's BLS data, but it's not "a study". It's raw data, akin to saying that Alaskans use fossil fuels disproportionately higher than those in Florida. The data doesn't lie, but it doesn't make any allowances for the fact that it comes out of the ground in Alaska and is used to keep cold houses warm.

[Joel thakkar]

19. My OP was reported

and it was voted 2-4 to leave it. Someone alerted just because i asked questions. So now asking questions is also sexist and misogynist.
(The person who alerted wrote in his/her note that this post is incredibly sexist)

You all should just accept the UNIVERSAL TRUTH that women are paid "77 cents for every dollar earned by men" and no doubts/questions should be raised as it is a FACT!

It is also incredibly ironic that he/she considers 1 report of BLS as "Universal Truth" and other report from BLS of men working more than women as "BS".

No Wonder they are so passionate that they will start applauding (and posting in GD) an-anti porn Report from "witherspoon institute" but would ignore every other report from the same institute against LGBT rights and marriage, embryonic stem cell research and abortion!