Barack Obama
Related: About this forumDialogue with Hair on Fire members
Pro-Snowden Hair on Fire member: Can you believe that Obama? He said he wouldn't do the same thing as Bush, but there he is spying on Americans!
Other DUer: Wait, is he doing the same thing as Bush? Maybe I missed it but is Obama having FBI/CIA/NSA listen to American's phone calls without a warrant?
Pro-Snowden Hair on Fire member: Oh, now you are trying to make excuses for spying on Americans? You like that Obama is doing that don't you? The rest of us are not authoritarians. Take that elsewhere.
Other DUer: Hey, hold on a second here. I asked a simple question. I was very upset when I found out that Bush was listening to American citizen's phone calls without a warrant. Is Obama doing the same thing? I was told he is getting a FISA warrant and is only having the NSA put metadata in database vaults for later use if necessary. Is that not right?
Pro-Snowden Hair on Fire member: I knew it. I'm not falling for this game, OK? Play it with someone else who also doesn't care about the privacy of Americans.
Second Pro-Snowden Hair on Fire member: Good Job Pro-Snowden Hair on Fire member! Next thing Other DUer will be telling you is that Obama is playing n-th dimensional chess.
Third Pro-Snowden Hair on Fire member: Yes, or they will tell you "You never loved him".
Other DUer: WTF is going on here? When did DU become like this? Can I not even get some basic information from other DUers about what it is we know for a fact and what is being guessed at? If I am wrong can you at least point me to some info?
Pro-Snowden Hair on Fire member: We're not going to waste our time with you Other DUer. We all know a third way Obama apologist when we see one.
Other DUer: At this point I expect Ashton Kutcher to jump out and tell me I'm being punked. Kafka himself would not believe how surreal this is.
Pro-Snowden Hair on Fire member: Other DUer, we actually care about the Constitution and Fourth amendment, we know those things don't matter to you.
Other DUer: Why stop there? Why not call me a Nazi and Stalinist while you are at it?
Pro-Snowden Hair on Fire member: You ARE a Nazi and Stalinist. What Obama is doing is the same thing those people did.
Other DUer: Someone please wake me up and tell me DU is not really like this now.
Pro-Snowden Hair on Fire member: You third way DLCers better get used to it. We are not going to put up with this centrist triangulation anymore.
Other DUer: Centrist triangulation? Is that what asking for facts and a reasonable dialogue is now?
Second Pro-Snowden Hair on Fire member: That's it, I'm adding you to my ignore list Other DUer. I have an article to write and don't have time for this.
Other DUer: Time for what? Asking for facts and more information? Oh well, I'm on her ignore list so its a waste of time to reply I guess.
Third Pro-Snowden Hair on Fire member: Other DUer, its like this, we care about the fact that the government is spying on its citizens and you dont seem to care about that.
Other DUer: Of course I would care about that if its happening. What evidence do you have that this is happening?
Third Pro-Snowden Hair on Fire member: There you go again. Second Pro-Snowden Hair on Fire member was right. It is a waste of time talking to you. Plonk.
Pro Snowden Hair on Fire member: Other DUer, I dont understand how you could be mad when Bush does something then totally OK with it when Obama does it.
Other DUer: I've never had a migrane before, but I think I am getting one now.
think
(11,641 posts)stevenleser
(32,886 posts)point. I've been worn down by nonsensical discussions just like the one I dramatized in this OP. I have no confidence that any kind of a remotely reasonable and fact based discussion will take place on anything near the NSA Surveillance topic.
think
(11,641 posts)blowers who'd like to testify before congress without gag orders.
There is plenty to talk about other than Snowden and Greenwald....
Voice for Peace
(13,141 posts)from your post.
reusrename
(1,716 posts)I think you just don't have any desire to comprehend what folks are trying to explain to you.
You seem bright enough.
Why revert to strawman arguments rather than addressing the issues raised by the hair-on-fire crowd?
Why not engage on the real issues?
railsback
(1,881 posts)After an extended long streak of freedom of speech, I suddenly became an anti-gay Republican Obamabot, sent to the Jury, who assumed the worst to pass judgement. It really was an excellent example of you all protecting my 1st and 4th Amendment rights, which are currently under assault by the Obama STASI.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)Last edited Mon Jul 8, 2013, 12:46 PM - Edit history (1)
You must agree fully, enthusiastically, zealously or maniacally or you are the enemy! And you will be given no quarter. A volley of character assaults and insults will follow as sure as night after day.
JustAnotherGen
(33,561 posts)bunnies
(15,859 posts)omg!
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)How do I suddenly appear on a website with thousands of posts?
I've been around DU for years (had to create a new account a while back) and I'm seeing posters that I have never seen before, suddenly appearing with thousands of posts.
Cha
(305,415 posts)victims of the Stasi.
Cha
(305,415 posts)they're back hitching a ride on the Greenwald-Snowden-Assange crapmobile.
IrishAyes
(6,151 posts)Especially on a site dedicated to supporting his policies. Otherwise we might as well rip off our OFA buttons and hide under the bed until it's all over. But then it would NEVER be safe to come out. And we'd deserve the status of sheeple. I'd rather fight out in the open and let the chips fall where they may. In this particular instance, it means a faster and unflinching response to the invading enemy. Or did anyone mistake the trolls for friends or potential converts? In a pig's eye! They're sociopathic shills. Clasp a snake to our bosom and expect to be injected with their poison. I'm telling you, they ruined barackobama.com. You could hardly go near the place in a hazmat suit.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)That is the ideology being pushed. I just found a great site explaining a lot of it, exactly what is in those responses. I'll send you a link and hope you have time to peruse the site.
Number23
(24,544 posts)What I find so incredibly telling is the sources some of these people use to prove their point. I mean there is no "media organization' too half assed, obscure or deranged if it supports their view.
The leader of the current gang even hilariously posted an easily identifiable hoax yesterday. And what was really so funny about that was just a few hours earlier, I had just posted in Prosense's appreciation thread about that poster's tendency to use the most absurd sources in order to promote her agenda. You truly cannot make this shit up.
Iliyah
(25,111 posts)that the pro- has tons of thread with different titles with the same subject enclosed.
There main purpose on the the DU is for everyone to distrust, hate, not believe while all along promoting their agenda - GOPer/Libertarian.
Also, two things they are concerned about, Snowden - sorta NSA and discrediting Pres O. Confirmation - their thread. How many threads do they need to spout both, tons.
dtom67
(634 posts)I DO care about the spying issue. It is a waste of time talking about either S or O. Argue for or against the spying and screw the individuals .Patriot Act and NDAA are being used to remove civil liberties. Side note: Ron and Rand Paul are psychos; please refrain from the paulbot namecalling bullshit.
It is interesting to note, however, that this post uses the term "pro Snowden" while simltaneously being very careful to use "other DUer" and not "pro Obama" for the actors in this faux exchange.
pnwmom
(109,562 posts)Obama, on the other hand, has worked in conjunction with large majorities of Congress on both sides of the aisle on the Patriot Act and amendments to it.
dtom67
(634 posts)Means that I am not interested in assigning blame. Is it not possible to object to spying w/o it being an attack on the President?
The issue is "spying",, isn't it?
pnwmom
(109,562 posts)but NOT to support Snowden's leaks about our spying on foreign countries?
dtom67
(634 posts)Sorry, I think I said that already.
But if you MUST make this about supporting( or smearing ) some one, then I wish to throw my support behind FUTURE whistleblowers. As such, I am compelled to think about more than the CNN/FOX/BLABLA news talking points and consider that whistleblowing is important. No one, not even a soldier ( see Nuremburg trials) is obligated too carry out immoral orders. And keeping silent while your government shreds the Constitution is as immoral as it gets.
Its ok to hate snowden, but the next whistleblower might say something you want to hear. And if it appears that future whistleblowers will get the "Full Manning" treatment, then everyone will be afraid to speak out against the government.
As far as leaks about foreign Spying goes, look at the situation. We have a handfull of whistleblowers in prison. We have a Media that talks about snowden, but not the spying, so much. Sooner or later, he will be captured, tortured and imprisoned for life. OF COURSE he will be expected to leak some secrets in exchange for asylum. I'm sure the prospect of standing naked in a jail cell for a year before trial does not appeal to him. So, he leaks something a potential savior might wanna hear. Fear maks people do funny things......
IrishAyes
(6,151 posts)Like what you're doing now? Pitching a hissy fit where it doesn't belong and will only garner outrage, instead of taking it to a more appropriate arena where you might actually influence somebody? Your behavior today has not only been crass, but also counter-productive and self-defeating. Or can you understand that, because it WOULD require caring to some degree. It's like a little kid that starts to scream wildly at the fair when his parents want to eat dinner instead of taking him on the pony ride. You'll never impress anyone over the age of 12 if you insist on acting like a spoiled brat. And I for one am not an adult who lets a petulant child lead me around by the nose.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)I think if that was the main concern, there would be two things the hair on fire crowd would definitely be doing differently:
1. They would be spending a lot of time trying to find out the facts and separating the facts from suppositions so that they and everyone else who agrees with them would be armed with the best facts possible.
2. They would not attack other people who are asking for facts and information. While I dramatized this in my dialogue somewhat, it is true that merely questioning a Hair on Fire person to ask them to provide factual backup for their assertions often results in attack.
I think the above is how I would behave if I wanted to manufacture as much outrage as possible on a subject against a person or group without regard to or in spite of the facts.
dtom67
(634 posts)that the NSA is not collecting metadata on Americans? Are you saying that a large facility is not being built in Utah to store the data? When I say that I do not care about Snowden or Obama, how is that NOT a fact?
To be perfectly frank, I believe you do not care about the facts. If you did, you would have laid them out for us by now.
in your role as a Democratic Strategist, it seems to me that you are here for damage control, not actual information sharing.
That's fine.
I got some work for ya:
Guantanamo
Torture
Corporate shill appointments
Social security chained CPI
drones strikes far less accurate than claimed. innocents killed
Prosecution of whistle blowers
Least Transparent "pro-transparency" administration ever.
NDAA
Loss of constitutionally protected rights of free speech, assembly and search and seizure.
Militarized Police force
failure to prosecute financial crimes while also having the highest incarceration rate in the world
assassination of us citizens and their family members w/o due process.
crushing of OWS
Police infiltration and the good old agent provocateur.
Add it all up and you can bet you ass I am concerned with NSA domestic activities.
have a nice day....
Cha
(305,415 posts)talking points from those who show their ignorance by continually bringing up Guantanamo, torture, etc like they were facts instead of fiction.
.. and you be sure and have a real nice day.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)And this is DU.
Snowden is not a Democrat.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)Their hands would freeze at their keyboards before they could type in a word that Obama or anything in the Democratic platform is worth a dime. They are in the Libertarian cult and don't believe in the social safety net, and other liberal policies. They wave a flag in front of us about the issues, but when you get down to it, they have no root with liberals, they despise them.
The Democratic Party is the greatest threat to Libertarianism that there is. There is a reason for that. Libertarians and plutocrats are blood brothers and I'll make a thread about how Obama's agenda and thus the Democratic Party are the only solution that works for America and the world. Plutocrats will do anything to destroy that.
I'll link it here when I'm finished.
EDIT: On second thought, I'm not going to bother anymore.
Narkos
(1,185 posts)Amonester
(11,541 posts)In:
"Other DUer: Why stop there? Why not call me a Nazi and Stalinist while you are at it?
Pro-Snowden Hair on Fire member: You ARE a Nazi and Stalinist. What Obama is doing is the same thing those people did."
Psychological projection can be revealing sometimes.
My numbers of DUers who have put me on Ignore is growing (checked it for the sadness of it).
treestar
(82,383 posts)Which envies the tools our Obamaspies have!
SleeplessinSoCal
(9,671 posts)Thank you. I only dive in when I have the stomach for it.
Just Saying
(1,799 posts)I had no idea what they were talking about!
Yes, I too tried to discuss these issues and was attacked by a mob talking in code and throwing around insults.
Why bother? Life is too short.
Thanks for this!
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)Iliyah
(25,111 posts)its called math, you should know.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)Just Saying
(1,799 posts)And see how many boring & baiting posts qualify in GD.
treestar
(82,383 posts)HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)Iliyah
(25,111 posts)its call life.
SaveOurDemocracy
(4,437 posts)..............................
Cha
(305,415 posts)and only members who support the President are welcome here.
So you don't need to worry about flame bait with your little fishing pole.
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)you'd seem a little less....I dunno...like an agitator yourself had you taken the time to read the rules of this group. Silly little fly boy.
giftedgirl77
(4,713 posts)I have actually gotten jumped for providing factual evidence as to the yearly reports published by the FISA Courts as well as everything else on the matter. Facts have gone out the window
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)The providing of or asking for facts in a dialogue with the Hair on Fire folks is a damnable offense.
giftedgirl77
(4,713 posts)It is a very disturbing experience.
hopemountain
(3,919 posts)point back at something done or allowed by one of their party.
sheshe2
(87,495 posts)that bothers me the most are Nazi and Hitler. A poster the other day said something about being a " good little German" was to follow their fearless leader.
Not every German was a Nazi, nor did every German follow Hitler. It was a broad brush attack that was highly insulting to those of us that are of German descent!
The hate is pretty strong out there, Steven.
Thank you for your OP.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Right on! Describes them to a T!
IrishAyes
(6,151 posts)So my question now becomes, why is the flame throwing being tolerated in here? Who has the key? Don't you know they'll grab a mile when you give them an inch? The mods need to do their duty and clean house. Free-for-alls belong outside on the street, not in here. Frankly I'm disappointed in lax management at this point. If things are let slide long enough, it will hit rock bottom all too soon and there'll be more than enough blame to go around.
Enforce TOS or you're shooting yourself and the rest of us in the foot.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)IrishAyes
(6,151 posts)The juries are far too lenient, even outside a supposed safe haven group. They're quite capable of allowing trolls to smother this or any other group under a pile of offal, because trolls understand perfectly that if they get away with it once, they can keep on with impunity. That's no way to run a group, much less a civilization. Especially when half the jury members are likely to be trolls themselves! Did you know that subversive groups typically try to insert themselves in government bureaucracies such as the DMV's so they can track anyone they want by license plates? Etc. Rule of law means nothing to them.
My other favorite truism: Lie down with dogs, Arise with fleas.
I can't help thinking what would happen if this were going on in face-time life and goons barged into a tough union hall.
FSogol
(46,525 posts)Other Duer: I politely disagree on this, this, and this.
Pro Snowden Hair on Fire member: You're telling me to shut up!
freshwest
(53,661 posts)FSogol
(46,525 posts)Great image, btw.
Politicub
(12,288 posts)Number23
(24,544 posts)"That has NOTHING to do with my numerous personal attacks, stalking, and daily announcements that I'm putting people on ignore as if anyone gives a shit. There is a concerted effort to get me kicked off of DU just for speaking the troof!!1 They just don't like that I just keep it TOO REAL!!one!"
Major Hogwash
(17,656 posts)Man, I don't even have 100 people ignoring me.
Number23
(24,544 posts)Excuse me while I
Tons of hidden posts, over a hundred people ignoring one of them and according to them, it has nothing, absolutely NADA to do with their stalking, hateful, nasty, anti-social behavior including running around threads screaming "plonk!" at people they disagree with.
Oh no, it's all part of some vast DU conspiracy (probably cooked up by "authoritarians" in the BOG who know how to manipulate DU code and fix a jury) to get them kicked off of DU. They are innocent little lambs being picked on by an evil empire.
Major Hogwash
(17,656 posts)I've seen tons of crap from the 2 that you speak of, but there are others that are just as bad at getting along with other people at the DU.
Last year some of the other members really went after some of the members of the HOF.
So, 2 of them quit.
And that pretty much ended all of the stalking, hateful, nasty, and anti-social behavior that came from some of the members of the opposite sex who were harrassing them here.
Number23
(24,544 posts)Major Hogwash
(17,656 posts)Number23
(24,544 posts)Jamaal510
(10,893 posts)the irony that I see in this is when the HOF posters are calling people "authoritarian", "Nazi", "stalinist", etc. for disagreeing with them, they are kinda doing what they are supposedly decrying. They are disregarding other perspectives and the rest of the facts in a self-righteous outlook on the issues.
JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)be true. I am so disappointed and thinking about moving to China."
Politicub
(12,288 posts)just today. I don't even know what fractured thinking really means in this context - unless it's contemplating a broken finger.
I think you captured most of the current DU archetypes with your dialogue! Nicely done.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)great white snark
(2,646 posts)Excellent.
Lady Freedom Returns
(14,120 posts)Scary part is the hire on fire crowd makes me think of talking with a FReeper.
I wonder if that crowd realizes how they sound.
Hekate
(94,657 posts)Thanks to you and others here who dropped in.
It is crazy-making -- but there was one note of humor: after I told xxxxx "As long as you don't call me 'dear'..." she put me on Ignore. It's an ill wind that blows nobody any good, after all.
Major Hogwash
(17,656 posts)Last edited Sun Jul 14, 2013, 07:16 AM - Edit history (1)
. . . "One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich"
Based on the book written by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn.
But, that movie is not for the feint of heart.
However, it's a good movie for those people who are more interested in learning about how life was "so great" living in a gulag back in the USSR.
Hekate
(94,657 posts)Scary stuff, from a guy who was right there until they exiled him and his family to the US, in lieu of sending them to Siberia to die. And some ass here had the nerve to criticize him for not being a leftist, but being motivated by religion (in their opinion, a Bad Thing). The man was very unhappy in Vermont, felt his exile keenly, and returned home when he was finally allowed to do so.
He comes from a really long line of mordant Russian authors, though: "Lower Depths" certainly doesn't bear reading on a dark night.
I think cultural characteristics don't change that much over time -- not for the Chinese, not for the Russians. Neither of those vast territories has ever experienced "democracy" and in my opinion never will. Opening them to unfettered capitalism certainly isn't the same thing, and they know it. They fall back into old cultural patterns of autocratic rulership by other names....
Yes, it certainly has been interesting seeing how little Americans who believe themselves to be so very informed (i.e. DUers) know about the other countries and cultures we share the planet with. The number of people who have put me on Ignore has increased, too.
Major Hogwash
(17,656 posts)I had the wrong title of the movie, so I edited my post.
Don't worry about the number of people of ignoring you, there are quite a few ignorant people posting here these days.
I have more people ignoring me now, too, if it is any consolation.
DevonRex
(22,541 posts)to you in your thread about it. I had already trashed a word that ate your thread. Now I'm too confused to figure out what did it. So here I am.
great white snark
(2,646 posts)I'm reading how President Obama's comments today re zimm case mean nothing because of war on drugs and NSA.
Before I get kicked off DU for profuse profanity and for finally using the word PurityBagger I will log out.
Take care DevonRex & all the BOGers!
DevonRex
(22,541 posts)I had to either trash topics or leave DU. Seriously. So I know how you feel. Take care and watch something fun on TV. Something silly. Or get outside if you can. Clear your head. I'll be taking this advice myself.
Then I'll find an organization to work with for SYG repeal.
We can hold each other up here when we get tired, encourage each other like you just did for me. Thank you so much!