Greg Palast: New York voting fiasco just the warm-up for the November game

[SusanCalvin]

Buckle up, America. The voting demolition derby that was the New York primary on Tuesday was merely the crash test for the coming voting wreckage in November: a carefully planned pile up.

First, live from New York….

Francesca Rheannon, whom you may know as the host of Writers’ Voice radio, did the civic thing by volunteering to work the polls in a town east of New York City.

“I just got off my 17 hour shift as an election official. In my election district, out of 166 Democratic voters, 39 were forced to file affidavit ballots. The last [election] I worked in, exactly ONE voter needed an affidavit ballot.”

That’s nearly one of four voters. Why? Their names had gone missing from the voter rolls.

http://www.gregpalast.com/new-york-voting-fiasco-just-the-warm-up-for-the-november-game/

[RobertEarl]

1. No wonder H won so 'big'

we're screwed. again.

[certainot]

39. bullshit. republicans are going to do this all over the country and

they've been blaming the dems all over the country for years for non-existant voter fraud to pass their voter suppression crap.

all the better if bernie supporters blame hillary - nicely done

palast is warning what republicans are doing and what they will do

and the idiot left ignores the massive talk radio monopoly that will be used to turn chaotic elections to their advantage all over the country - worth at least $390MIL/MONTH FREE to the fucking republican election thieves.

at a cheap $1000/hr x 15hrs/day x 1200 stations, rw talk radio is worth 4.68 BIL$/ year or 390MIL$ /month FREE for coordinated pro republican wall st think tank propaganda, hate, and swiftboating

and in NY the university of syracuse endorses 6 limbaugh stations that are working for the republican election thieves

and it's only one of 90 major universities supporting 268 limbuagh stations while they help the republicans set this up and then manage it in november

that makes those universities perfect places to protest anything republican - they will freak out

[scscholar]

76. This

If the Republican rulers of of NY can do this there, then they can do it anywhere.

[Amimnoch]

48. Sanders was behind it all.

Biggest part was done in the place he was born in.

It affected primarily long registered Democrats (you know, the ones that overwhelmingly vote for Hillary).

If any candidate is behind this one, and using the same style of argument your types like to use, Bernie Sanders had rigged the election in New York, and Hillary should have walked away with even more delegates if Bernie hadn't disenfranchised her voters.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

54. Bullshit.

Provide a source to back that claim up.

[Amimnoch]

56. Your side first.

Your Sanders camp are making the claim that Hillary is behind it. You provide yours and then I'll provide mine.

See, this is DU where apparently we're now allowed to freely slander candidates with absolutely no proof at all.

If your side can claim that Hillary was behind it all, then.. fairs fair.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

57. I did no such thing.

Now provide a source for your assertion.

[Amimnoch]

70. The person I replied to DID insinuate that.

So either call their unsubstantiated claim "Bullshit" as well. Where you appear consistant and fair.
One of your surrogates provde their own information that substantiates the claim to which I countered.
Or continue your rant of righteous hypocracy.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

79. I'm not interested in the person you replied to.

I'm still waiting for evidence of your ridiculous claim.

[jane123]

60. Read this 1st person account from a poll worker in New York.

MY EXPERIENCE AS A POLL WORKER: EPIC FAIL -- OR THEFT?

I just got off my 17 hour shift as an election official in East Hampton, NY. I am from this area and went canvassing for Bernie for 4 days here. While canvassing, I found overwhelming support for Bernie in my middle class area -- nearly every house where I actually talked to voters (about 40% of the houses), almost all were for Bernie.

But today at the polls, many of those had disappeared from the voter roll book. In my own ED district, which is the district I was working in, out of 166 Democratic voters, 39 were forced to file affidavit ballots. (ONLY 2 Republican voters had to file affidavits.) That's close to 20%. Let that sink in for a moment. Many of these voters were long term registered Democrats -- some were in couples where one person was on the rolls and the other was not. Most had not moved since the last election and had voted in the most recent elections.

Hillary won by 11 votes in my ED -- not counting affidavits. THE AFFIDAVITS MUST NOT ONLY BE COUNTED, THEY MUST BE ALLOWED.

It was impossible for me, an election official, to get a straight story on whether the affidavits would be counted. The "coordinator" -- the top person at the site -- let slip that they count the affidavits "proportionately". If she is correct, that means, I assume, they take a sample of the ballots to count. Not all. If that sample is based on the proportion of official ballots cast, then I imagine it would just reproduce the first results WITHOUT the affidavits.

But it's worse than that. If the voter has been purged from the Board of Elections rolls -- like 125,000 Brooklyn voters were -- then it seems the affidavits (because no one could tell me for certain WHAT would happen to the affidavits -- are not counted. If you can't prove you are a registered Democrat, then you won't be counted, it seems. (If you received a voter card, you have some proof. But not everyone did or they may not be able to retrieve it.)

The ruling that came down from the emergency voter protection suit was no remedy. It allowed for getting a court order to vote. The nearest judge is more than an hour from here. And I was strongly discouraged from even informing voters that a court order was an option (I had to fight to be able to tell people of their right to a court order.)

Finally -- this was NOT business as usual. This was my second election. The last one I worked at, exactly ONE voter needed an affidavit ballot in my ED. Every poll worker there, at all the ED tables (there were 4) was shocked at the number of voters who were not on the rolls. Many have been working for years -- and had never seen anything remotely like this.

The whole purging and affidavit process needs to be investigated on an emergency basis BEFORE the election results are decided. Bernie's folks need to be on top of this. They need to fight for an honest election. They owe it to us who have worked so hard for them.

Francesca Rheannon

[Baobab]

67. Bookmarked for outrageousness

is this a joke?

[Amimnoch]

71. Not really a joke, as much as a point.

I just wanted some to see what it feels like when the candidate you fully believe in is attacked with baseless, completely unsubstantiated, and hyperbolic insults.

Attack the process, attack the disenfranchisement of voters..any voters..without any regard to who they may or may not support, and you absolutely have an ally here.

Attack the candidate with something completely unsubstantiated linking her, insinuating her, or implicating her with no evidence.. What so ever.. I'll return the favor.

[Baobab]

75. Give me some examples of outrageous things people have said about Hillary that made you feel like

that

[Amimnoch]

80. Sure.

First there's the very obvious insinuation of the person I originally replied to.

Another one in a thread I was just in:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10141424044#post15

And that's only one in this thread and the one I just linked.

[Baobab]

81. Could you say what they said, I am just finding circular - its not clear to me what they said.

if you are talking about the poll irregularities, You have to understand this stuff has never in my life happened before- And I am in my 50s and have voted in every Presidential election since I was 18.

Example, watch this video starting at around 25:00-

[modestybl]

69. They purged "inactive" voters... the ones most likely to be motivated by Sanders...

Sanders trounces the vote among new and young voters (the Oct. 9 registration deadline before even the first debate guaranteed to block those newly inspired by Sanders), and among voters who had gotten disgusted and discouraged by "business as usual".

[Amimnoch]

72. Were the election laws and rules changed for this primary?

If so, you do make a great point, and I've missed that information.

[modestybl]

74. It's not only the rules, its what gets enforced...

... and voter purges are one of those discretionary tools at the hands of elections boards, who tend to be pro-establishment.

I often wondered why the DNC didn't go into full attack mode on election fraud (as opposed to voter fraud, non-existent). It hadn't occurred to me before that these types of shenanigans benefit the establishment of both parties. Debbie Wasserman Schultz would definitely prefer Dems in the minority but she holds her position, over Dems in the majority but her losing a primary. It's that simple. One silver lining in the NY election (and in AZ and IL and MA, etc.) is that this nonsense is being exposed and lawsuits are already happening.

We tended to focus on general elections, and the Southern states, not realizing that some of the worst voter suppression happens in places like NY and Chicago.

[Bohemianwriter]

2. Ah! Greg Palast!

One of the few who can still call himself a real journalist in today's world of infomercials, reality shows and side shows...

[SusanCalvin]

3. Ain't that the sad and simple truth. nt

[pnwmom]

4. Probably some of them were independents following the widespread online advice to request

a provisional ballot just in case the lawsuit to open the primary succeeded.

[Raster]

5. And probably they weren't. See how that works?

[pnwmom]

6. ABC's exit poll said close to 20% of Dem primary voters identified themselves as independent.

That would explain why the exit polls didn't match the real results. The votes of the 20% weren't counted.

http://www.inquisitr.com/3011301/new-york-independent-voters-purged-democrats-urged-to-vote-with-provisional-ballots-in-presidential-primary/

“We are encouraging all independent and disenfranchised voters to VOTE (Tuesday) by provisional ballot,” Shyla Nelson of Election Justice USA said. “They should tell poll workers that there is a motion pending in Federal District Court to declare the Primary open.”

[SusanCalvin]

8. Looks like maybe I picked the wrong excerpt to post.

This just the intro. The major point is what the headline says - expected shenanigans in November. And we all know which party has a history of pulling them.....

[newthinking]

9. The poll worker has worked this before. If it was independents he would have said so.

Instead he compared last election he worked with this one. He was talking about Democrats who arrived to vote and found they were no longer registered.

I have read your posts about caucuses and you had seemed then to be a little more careful about not letting your personal bias effect your analysis. I appreciated your posts for that reason.

I think you need to rethink your defense of what has clearly been shown to be something having "gone wrong" and resulted in even long term democrats getting disenfranchised.

[pnwmom]

10. We know that independents were being urged to vote by provisional ballot

in case the "emergency" lawsuit succeeded in opening the primary.

And we know that a significant number of voters identified themselves in exit polls as independents -- even though it was a primary open only to Dems.

And we know that, at least in some precincts, there were an unusual number of provisional ballots.

So why is it illogical to think that the lawsuit filers succeeded in getting a significant number of independents to request a provisional ballot, in case the judge ordered the primary to be opened to all?

And that the discrepancy between the exit polls and the actual results could be explained by the fact that voters who cast provisional ballots were included in exit polls but not in the reported results?

[Progressive dog]

42. K&R

[LiberalFighter]

51. That does need to be stressed.

How exit polls showed voters identifying themselves as independents. That weakens the argument that many voters had their party affiliation changed.

[LiberalFighter]

24. How were the poll books set up?

Were just those registered as Democrats or Republicans in this book? Or everyone including those without party affiliation?

How would the poll worker know that they were registered as a Democrat before unless it was someone he knew enough to know their party affiliation? If the poll books only had those that had a registered party affiliation how would they know that the person was no longer a registered voter?

[Progressive dog]

44. In NY, there are separate books by party

Every time you vote, you sign in the book, in the space for your signature for that election. If your name isn't in the Democrat book, you are not registered as a Democrat. Your party affiliation is tied to your registration.

[LiberalFighter]

50. Thank you for that info.

I was only able to find one county where it was set up that way and it was clear by their instructions.

It appeared that one of the NYC counties had them all in one book. But it wasn't clear. I did find that ballots are color coded based on party affiliation. It would seem that to reduce errors separate books that are also color coded would work best too.

[Dont call me Shirley]

11. Probably the 126,000 who were kicked off the voting roles. Stop rationalizing Election Fraud as a

mere mixup.

[pnwmom]

14. They haven't determined exactly what happened, but it's possible it was connected

to the disruption of Hurricane Sandy, when many NY voters were allowed to vote elsewhere. That might, unfortunately, have resulted in an inadvertent address change for many.

But we do need to get to the bottom of what happened, even though it didn't change the outcome. (If anything it meant a loss for Hillary, who strongly carried Brooklyn and all the NY boroughs.)

Any problems need to be dealt with before we get to the general.

[Dont call me Shirley]

28. Yes we do but with the fox guarding the investigation henhouse all the evidence will be in the

bottom...of a deep lake.

[pnwmom]

29. What fox? Are you accusing a Democrat of being unethical, or is this a Rethug you're referring to?

[Dont call me Shirley]

31. Rose colored glasses.

[pnwmom]

32. That's why you're seeing red. n/t

[Dont call me Shirley]

77. Funny....

[Thor_MN]

18. Take the worst case, paranoid nightmare..

The evil Hillery campaign, with deadly 100% accuracy, kicked 126 thousand die hard Bernie voters out of the Democratic party.

Clinton still wins by 8.5%.

[lakeguy]

38. and probably some of the potential voters just left and

didn't take the time to fill one out. that's exactly the point of doing this

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. Yup, 2000 will be a choir compared to what is coming

[blackspade]

12. the people responsible for these purges are scum

Thieves of democracy are traitors to all that the constitution stands for.

[xloadiex]

13. Here is Francesca whole public post

from Facebook.

MY EXPERIENCE AS A POLL WORKER THE EPIC FAIL OF A PRIMARY I just got off my 17 hour shift as an election official in East Hampton, NY. I am from this area and went canvassing for Bernie for 4 days here. While canvassing, I found overwhelming support for Bernie in my middle class area -- nearly every house where I actually talked to voters (about 40% of the houses), almost all were for Bernie.
But today at the polls, many of those had disappeared from the voter roll book. In my own ED district, which is the district I was working in, out of 166 Democratic voters, 39 were forced to file affidavit ballots. (ONLY 2 Republican voters had to file affidavits.) That's close to 20%. Let that sink in for a moment.

Many of these voters were long term registered Democrats -- some were in couples where one person was on the rolls and the other was not. Most had not moved since the last election and had voted in the most recent elections.
Hillary won by 11 votes in my ED -- not counting affidavits. THE AFFIDAVITS MUST NOT ONLY BE COUNTED, THEY MUST BE ALLOWED.
It was impossible for me, an election official, to get a straight story on whether the affidavits would be counted. The "coordinator" -- the top person at the site -- let slip that they count the affidavits "proportionately". If she is correct, that means, I assume, they take a sample of the ballots to count. Not all. If that sample is based on the proportion of official ballots cast, then I imagine it would just reproduce the first results WITHOUT the affidavits. But it's worse than that. If the voter has been purged from the Board of Elections rolls -- like 125,000 Brooklyn voters were -- then it seems the affidavits (because no one could tell me for certain WHAT would happen to the affidavits -- are not counted. If you can't prove you are a registered Democrat, then you won't be counted, it seems. (If you received a voter card, you have some proof. But not everyone did or they may not be able to retrieve it.)
The ruling that came down from the emergency voter protection suit was no remedy. It allowed for getting a court order to vote. The nearest judge is more than an hour from here. And I was strongly discouraged from even informing voters that a court order was an option (I had to fight to be able to tell people of their right to a court order.)

Finally -- this was NOT business as usual. This was my second election. The last one I worked at, exactly ONE voter needed an affidavit ballot in my ED. Every poll worker there, at all the ED tables (there were 4) was shocked at the number of voters who were not on the rolls. Many have been working for years -- and had never seen anything remotely like this.
The whole purging and affidavit process needs to be investigated on an emergency basis BEFORE the election results are decided. Bernie's folks need to be on top of this. They need to fight for an honest election. They owe it to us who have worked so hard for them.

[Enthusiast]

40. Thank you, xloadiex. Just as I suspected.

Although I have heard little about it I suspect Ohio was much the same as NY.

[Mesee]

49. Poll Worker

It is being reported on News 880 NYC of election fraud. They acknowledge in the City the Democratic knows of the problem for years. They try to quiet people down and do nothing afterwards. In 2008 Hillary got close to 100% of the vote in Harlem and East New York, Brooklyn. Obama received zero votes. So the first Black man running for the Presidency does nt receive 1 vote from these two neighbors. Mayor Bloomburg went on television and reported election fraud.

[Uncle Joe]

15. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, Donkees.

[SusanCalvin]

20. Eh? nt

[Uncle Joe]

22. I'm sorry, SusanCalvin, I must have been distracted.

[frylock]

16. Enjoy it while you can, Hillary Supporter.

[SusanCalvin]

21. Huh? Are you calling me a Hillary supporter? nt

[frylock]

23. No. That was directed to supporters of Mrs Clinton who are laughing this off.

They're going to look foolish whining about election fraud when it negatively effects their candidate in the GE. I'm a huge fan of Palast, have seen him speak twice, and have signed copies of 'Armed Madhouse' and 'Best Democracy...'.

[Darb]

62. Enjoy what?

Pray tell.

[frylock]

63. Enjoy the election fraud.

uh-doy

[Darb]

64. Why the fuck would we enjoy election fraud?

Put your Gumby suit on and give an explanation a try. I await your reasoning.

[frylock]

68. I'm basing that on the rather glib attitude that Hillary Supporter has taken toward it.

Seems like it's no BFD so long as a certain candidate isn't effected. People are being mocked as conspiracy theorists here for expressing concern.

[Darb]

82. Who says a "certain candidate" isn't affected?

I'd say all us sensible Democrats are well aware of the voter purges that have been going on and the rest of the antics of the repugnants aimed at fixing elections, including gerrymandering. I'd love more to be done about it. What do you suggest? This shit didn't just start, it has been going on for a long time, way back when Bernie was a Socialist, not just recently.

And quit pretending that only bernies know what the fuck is up about this and everything else. It's as arrogant as it is uninformed. We didn't just jump into the Democratic party you know. We know who the farkin bad guys are and what they are up to.

[pat_k]

17. "uncovering an unjustified ethnic cleansing of voter rolls from Ohio to Florida to Texas"

[Historic NY]

19. The last election your worked....

the one where many that came out yesterday didn't then....if they didn't vote in a school board, local election, fire district election, of the 2012 election there is a good chance they were purged. In 08 there were lots of purges and new electronic voting was coming on line. I was recruited by the Senate to monitor elections in my county. The next largest category of purges was people that failed to update there address's on the NY drivers licenses, yeah who thinks about that when its an 8 year renewal. On top of that you cannot not have a post office address, it must be a physical address that can be verified. Then the people that don't want government to be busy bodies check off not-affiliated on there Driver License applications, NY has motor voter. You can call it a demolition derby if you wish, but its not the Board of Elections responsibility, its you the voter to keep them informed. The NY Constitution incorporated into it many provisions the new help America Vote Act of 2002. I just giving you reasons why one get vaporized.....its actually self-inflicted since many don't participate in voting when and where it counts.

It puts more work on the shoulders of those that work the polls and they can only go by the lists. Its even hard to fill these positions because people couldn't be bothered. Its usually left up to the major political parties to find people to work. I was heartened to see some young people instead of 70-80 year old ladies sitting in my District yesterday.

I covered 36 sq miles + and then was sent to the most controversial section in the county where there is a large voting bloc. I had to assist and arbitrate many of the applications for affidavit ballots. This was suppose to be the big trial run in a presidential year 08....for all the suggestions and fixes including BOE notifications people still can't get it right. People need to get serious about voting in every election or at the very least check on of the many on-line sites that will tell you if your registered or where to vote.

[Feeling the Bern]

25. Our elections can be summed up easily: "The one that cheats the most wins."

Our elections are, have (and possibly always have been), and will always be a damned joke.

Carlin was right:

[stopbush]

26. Yawn. Lose the fedora, Greg. It looks stupid on you.

[AlbertCat]

30. Typical

Reflects what Hillary brings to the table perfectly.

[raindaddy]

37. Kinda like that yellow Star Trek outfit???

[CoffeeCat]

27. Same thing happened in our Iowa Caucuses

This year our caucuses went to shit. In 2008, we had record attendance and participation. This year, a complete shitstorm.

Rampant cheating at the precinct level. Hillary supporters caught on video committing voter fraud. 100 precincts without precinct chairs. Errors found in official state-reported results. Tons of people not on the voter rolls. Caucus sites too small for the turnout. A Des Moines Register editorial written by the entire editorial board titled, "Something smells in the Iowa Democrstic Caucuses", the Iowa Democratic Party Chair refusing to allow an audit of the results, the PDF that listed official precinct results removed from the Iowa Democratic Party website, and on and on.

The difference is--Hillary Clinton and her wake of destruction. Cheating, shenanigans; and surrogates and supporters who heed the "win at all costs" mentality by cheating, stealing and lying.

Again, we had no problems in 2008 with record attendance. The difference this year was Hillary Clinton and her FEMA-worthy campaign.

We've seen this from state to state to state. It's destruction on steroids and a complete and utter disrespect for the people in these states, their processes and our democracy in general.

What a disgrace.

[ReRe]

33. Amen and AMEN!

"This would be a great place to start a democracy."

[INdemo]

34. But it is ok if Kathleen Harris Schultz cheats

becasue that is acceptable..in Iowa,in Nev,in Mass..and its also acceptable if Bill Clinton campaigns within 50 feet of the polling entrance and blocks voters from voting...

[CoffeeCat]

35. I was always under the impression

that because our party was collectively railing against Bush stealing elections--that the Democrats were moral people who didn't steal elections and engage in voter suppression and dirty election tricks.

I had no idea that there was a contingent within our party that would actually enage in the same immoral Bush tactics.

I thought the Republicans were evil and immoral, while the Democrats were righteous and moral. Turns out, there's a faction in our party that is not against cheating and rigging elections, per se. They are willing to do it themselves.

It's very bizarre.

[Enthusiast]

41. Hey, CoffeeCat. It's shocking to find out just how wrong we were.

It makes me wonder what else we have been wrong about. Things are not always as they first appear.

[CoffeeCat]

43. This is why we have to keep donating/fighting

We have to keep the revolution going. We have to stay in this fight.

We've come so far. We have to see this through to the convention.

Neither Hillary or Bernie will have enough pledged delegates, before the convention, to clinch the nomination!

[Enthusiast]

45. Right you are!

[INdemo]

47. There has never been a Democratic

Candidate that wanted this as much as Hillary Clinton ..,or as long (30 years)
The Clinton campaign is using the same Karl Rove tactics as Bush/Cheney...
It would be of no surprise if we would find out that Karl Rove is actually advising the Clinton campaign.......

[nxylas]

58. This election has certainly been an eye-opener

I'm tempted to say that Tammany Hall is alive and well, but that's unfair on Tammany Hall, which at least was known to sometimes use its admittedly dubious strongarm tactics in order to help out the little guy.

[thereismore]

65. Lately I have been reminded a lot of the "both parties are the same" meme. I always rejected it.

I was a fool playing the "where would they go?" game of William Clinton. We need a third party. This movement can give it to us.

[Loki]

36. Do you know what your states electioneering laws are?

If he was in the established allowance he and every other person who was promoting a candidate had a right to be there. That includes Bernie supporters.

[jwirr]

53. K&R

[Mopar151]

46. Our system needs a massive overhaul - by Sept. 1 at latest

It's obvious to me that elements of both parties (allied with RNC/DNC) have figured that their strategies to cheat up the elections were worth more to their interests than truly honest elections.
IMHO, we should go direct to the gold standard - a hand marked, hand counted paper ballot! Election night results using machine counting and computer tabulation should be provisional, and a manual, hand count and open tabulation (within 48() hours)should be the offical results. This will take a LOT of people the first time around - perhaps "drafted" from the federal court system, or mobilized elements of the National Guard.
Worth every dime, to me. The very integrity and legitimacy of our government is at stake.

[SusanCalvin]

78. ^THIS^

HAVA was a massive scam.

[George II]

52. The big difference between Tuesday and November is that Tuesday was a PRIMARY day....

....with lots of misguided (or uninformed) independents trying to vote.

[SoapBox]

55. PukeBaggers and Turd Wayers...

Both include Entrenched Elite Establishment types that are scared that someone may disrupt their power and control.

Time for a big ass Revolution.

[jane123]

59. New York Attorney General Eric Schneiderman Investigating Primary Voting Irregularities

About 120,000 registered Democrats were dropped from voter rolls in Brooklyn.
04/20/2016 05:36 pm ET

About 120,000 Democrats suspiciously disappeared from voter rolls in Brooklyn,according to NPR. An analysis of voter data by WNYC found that none of New York City’s other boroughs saw such a significant decline in the number of Democrats and just seven of the state’s 62 counties saw a decrease. The head of the New York City Board of Elections said so many voters were dropped in a small time frame because retirements and illness of staff members at the agency caused it to fall behind in maintaining its voter rolls, and it purged a high number of voters as it caught up with the backlog.

Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.), who lost the New York Democratic primary to former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, called the irregularities “absurd” and a Sanders campaign spokesman described them as “a disgrace” on Wednesday.

“I am deeply troubled by the volume and consistency of voting irregularities, both in public reports and direct complaints to my office’s voter hotline, which received more than one thousand complaints in the course of the day yesterday,” Schneiderman said in a statement. “That’s why today, we have opened an investigation into alleged improprieties in yesterday’s voting by the New York City Board of Elections. If necessary, we will initiate inquiries in additional areas of the State where voting irregularities appeared unusually high.”

[The_Casual_Observer]

61. Bernie lost big, that's all there is to it.

[OwlinAZ]

66. Doubtful.

Do we have the most corrupt voting system in the civilized world?

[The_Casual_Observer]

73. You call this civilized?