Can someone explain the whole Warren Indian thing to me?

[Deep13]

I have relatives and friends back in MA and when they bring it up, I would like to have an answer based on the actual facts. I know as a practical matter it is a non-issue since it would not affect how she would vote in the Senate, but people back East keep bringing it up.

[yellerpup]

1. Elizabeth Warren is from Oklahoma.

Everyone whose family has been in Oklahoma for more than a hundred years usually identifies as "I'm part-your-tribe-here." Ms. Warren undoubtedly heard stories in her childhood of a Native American ancestor in her family tree. She is not a member of the Cherokee tribe. To become a member of the Cherokee tribe one's family has to have a member of the Dawes Roll listed which closed in May of 1907. Every person on the Dawes Roll was entitled to 80 acres of their own, BUT by identifying as a tribal member in those times also ensured that you could not vote (until 1926 at the earliest) and would be subject to the US government as wards, and all the attending prejudice which that implies. Ms. Warren's family did not take that step, but that does not mean that she isn't of Cherokee heritage, it just means that her family didn't sign up. At one time a genealogist told her that she was 1/32nd blood quantum (blood quantum was dreamed up by the government, not the tribes) and so she invited others of Cherokee lineage to contact her during her time at Harvard. That message is what her opponent in Massachusetts slammed her for (prove you are Cherokee!) and of course she can't prove it because her ancestors didn't want anyone to know except through family stories told around the fire.

[bigbrother05]

2. The RW meme implies that by making the NA claim, she got some advantage

They are saying she falsely benefited from "affirmative action" with her claim. There is no evidence that Harvard hired her or used her NA status to meet any diversity goals. It seems that she only self identified based on family history without any expectation of benefit.

As a registered member of the Cherokee Nation (yes a card carrying NA from OK) her story is a nonissue and is indeed pretty much the norm for most long time OK families. BTW, she looks just as much NA as I do and I'm 1/4.

[yellerpup]

5. Osiyo, dinadinatli

I am sure she was curious about the Cherokee part of her ancestry and equally sure that she would want to explore that history through the eyes of others with a similar background. I proudly carry the same credentials as you do from the Cherokee Nation and no one has ever taken me for a 'skin, either.

[pixierigby]

11. So

then why has she refused interview requests from Native media outlets, and declined to speak to Cherokees eager to engage on this issue?

[DURHAM D]

14. Do you plan to vote for her?

[yellerpup]

15. Why do you think she doesn't want to speak with this group?

Do you know who these Cherokee women are? Do you know at whose idea it is to send them? Discover that and you will have your answer.

[pipi_k]

3. Not that this has anything to do with

that issue, but I've known Native American people (lived with a Mohawk guy for almost five years, and met people of other tribes through him) who basically scoffed at whites who claimed to have Cherokee blood in them.

They said if true, then it would appear that nearly 75% of the US population must be of Cherokee descent. That's how many whites claimed to have Cherokee blood.

Family tales are just that. I know for years my dad told us that we had Penobscot ancestry. It wasn't true. We're almost 99% French Canadian on his side, except for one woman whom a cousin told me is of M'ikmaq ancestry...from Nova Scotia. This is more plausible, but I still have to verify it somehow.

Anyway, this whole thing doesn't lessen Elizabeth Warren in my eyes from a political standpoint, but I do feel embarrassment for her when I think of how people who claim to be Cherokee are ridiculed by Native Americans who are only a generation or two removed from actual reservations.

[Deep13]

4. In fact most whites in N.Am. do have some native ancestors.

Natives were encouraged to marry into white society because the govt, used the opposite of the one-drop-rule to count Indians. Half white + half Indian = all white. This was of course to reduce Indian populations. My great-great-grandfather was a Native Canadian and a great-great-grandmother was a Native American or Canadian (I know less about her.) And those are just the ones I know about. Still, I'm pretty white with blue eyes, so know one would ever guess.

[pipi_k]

6. I think the chances

might be better if we're talking about French Canadian ancestry, and probably only if one's ancestors were here from almost the beginning, like with Samuel Champlain or thereabouts.

The French trappers/explorers didn't have many qualms about marrying the native women. There were very few white women around at that time.

Later immigrants found more white women available when boatloads of them were sent over by the French king. I have a couple of women ancestors who were "Filles du Roi"...or "King's Daughters". They weren't really his daughters, but widows and orphans given a dowry to come over and marry the Frenchmen.

I can trace quite a few diverging lines of my dad's family back to the mid - late 1600s and none of them has native roots except for that one M'ikmaq woman who is proving to be somewhat elusive.

I don't think the English were as...liberal, should I say...with their attitudes toward intermarriage with the native tribes.

[yellerpup]

7. When the early Cherokees noted that whites did not consider them "human"

they reasoned that once they had children of a Cherokee mother, they would be unable to deny their blood. They didn't know European history, culture, or custom, and couldn't imagine the concept of a 'deadbeat dad.' Our people also noticed that mixed-blood offspring at least had a chance of surviving smallpox (from inherited immunity) and didn't hesitate to secure some of that immunity for their own people. The result is that there are a lot of mixed-ancestry with Cherokee people in this country today, most of them undocumented. I don't know what percentage that is. It is true that the tribes confined to reservations tend to scoff at Cherokees, especially those of us who are not brown enough. Each tribe determines the eligibility requirements for its members and the Cherokee tribe requires a blood relative to be listed on the Dawes Roll. The blood quantum element was introduced by the Federal government to inhibit the collection of reparations (never to be awarded) but some tribes also adopted the same way of thinking in order to keep their blood undiluted. No fault, no foul.

Cherokees never lived on reservations. The second women's college in (what is now) the USA was built in the Cherokee Nation (now 13 counties in Oklahoma), the first phone in Indian Territory was installed in the Cherokee Nation. The first native/English newspaper in the USA was the "Cherokee Phoenix." I'm certainly not ashamed of being Cherokee or of my white skin.

[pipi_k]

17. I would like to see

DNA evidence, actually. I mean, for whites who claim to have Cherokee ancestry.

Just out of curiosity.

I found a couple of blogs which speak of something called "The Cherokee Syndrome" and the reasons behind it.

here's one:

http://stuffwhitepeopledo.blogspot.com/2009/06/claim-they-have-native-american-blood.html

One of them is that they hear rumors about special monies or grants given to people of NA ancestry.

this happened with a family friend, a guy who is of French Canadian descent with claims of First Nation ancestry. He had always heard of these grants, and thought he might someday try to cash in. I had to disappoint him by telling him something I read, which was that there's not even enough money for the people on the rolls...full blooded NA's...why would there be cash coming out of the sky for people who are less than 1/4 NA?

Well, anyway, the rationale behind native peoples wanting to marry whites for immunity from certain diseases makes a lot of sense, but, like I said, I would still love to see DNA testing done for/by people whose family lore includes tales of NA ancestry.

I'm seriously thinking of getting one myself.

[yellerpup]

20. The Cherokee is one of the few (possibly the only) tribes

who don't cut individual checks to their members. The Federal government cuts checks to the tribes, and the tribes decide what to do with the money. My first husband was Miami. He received a check every year. I am Cherokee and being a tribal member entitles me to health care, college scholarships, low cost housing loans (the tribe covers the cost of mortgage insurance), food banks, language lessons, and I am leaving a lot out. Because our tribe is not 'contained' on a reservation and is integrated into the population of Oklahoma we are just not that different from our fellow citizens. These benefits are available to tribal members, not to people who think they might be part....the catch is that you must also live within the borders of the Cherokee Nation (13 county area in NE Oklahoma) to take advantage of most of the benefits. I think you can get scholarships without living there or having to go to school there, but I'm not sure.

The rules for tribal membership are simple (prove your relationship to a blood relative listed on the Dawes Rolls), but are usually too much trouble (in the case of non-Cherokees, impossible) for most people to research. Cherokee Princess is a derogatory term on a par with white trash, wannabes, and other epithets and are used by other tribes to denigrate those of us whose blood is more dilute. There is no such thing as a 'wannabe'--you either are, or you ain't.

[Deep13]

8. So it's all horseshit.

What a surprise.

[pixierigby]

9. Actually, not really

Actually, the response to the issue from the Warren campaign is problematic on a variety of levels. The Republicans have certainly leveraged it to their advantage in the race, and the right media has taken the opportunity to parody the story via disconcertingly racist puns, but those facts don't negate the unsettling conduct on the part of Warren herself.

1. In April, the Boston Herald discovered that Harvard Law had responded to criticism about its lack of faculty diversity in the late '90s by touting Warren as a "woman of color" and "Native American" who added multiculturalism to their institution in articles published by the Fordham Law Review and the Harvard Crimson.

2. Warren said she had never listed herself as a Native American in a professional context.

3. The Herald discovered that Warren began to self-identify as a racial "minority" in Association of American Law School directories from 1986-1995 after previously self-identifying during her academic and fledgling professorial career as white. Warren amended her previous statement, and said she meant that she had never listed herself as NA on a job application. She released her University of Texas and Rutgers applications, but declined to release the Upenn or Harvard ones.

4. She said she had listed herself in the AALS directories as an ethnic minority in the hopes of being invited to Native American luncheones. However, the directories only allowed one to distinguish oneself as a minority, but not to specify which kind.

5. At this point, she had no idea what ancestor might have originally been the link to a Native background; what blood quantum she was; or anything about Cherokee enrollment, customs, traditions, etc. It was established she had never reached out to the Native community in Cambridge.

6. Her campaign hired a genealogist to research her past. He found a reference to a great-great-great grandmother in a family newsletter, but no primary evidence like a marriage certificate, etc.

7. It was reported, and subsequently retracted, that Warren was 1/32 Cherokee on the basis of the genealogist's discoveries. However, the NEHGS conceded that no evidence exists to substantiate that claim other than hearsay.

8. The Herald discovered that Harvard Law had claimed Warren as a Native American during her visiting tenure in the early 90s, as well as from 1995-2001, and as recently as last year, in diversity statistics compiled to comply with Department of Labor mandates. The administrator in charge of this process said he always relied on faculty members' self-identification to file his reports.

9. However, Warren does not meet the standard "tribal affiliation or community recognition" for the defintion of Native American delineated by Harvard or the government.

10. Warren amended her previous position on the issue, and admitted she had told Harvard of her "background," but only after she was hired.

11. Four Cherokee women who were troubled by Warren's conduct traveled to Boston to meet with her. She agreed to do so, but then, once they were there, refused to engage with them and contended that they were right-wing operatives supported by Republican money. There was no evidence to support this, other than the fact that one of the women had provided official replies to conservative blogs who asked her about her opposition to Warren.

12. Warren has declined to grant interviews to Native newspapers or media outlets, even while consenting to speak with the Globe and the Times.

13. A number of Native delegates to the Dem convention have extended an invite to attend their meeting in NC to address concerns they have about her history of self-identification and her campaign's response to the story.

Essentially, Warren facilitated Harvard's promotion of her as someone who exemplified the dearth of a diversity problem in Cambridge, so I don't see how it's unreasonable to ask, "well, how did you contribute a perspective influenced by your belief in this Native heritage to the Harvard community?" So far, she's said that her parents had to elope because of her paternal grandparents' disapproval, and that she has "high cheekbones. . . likes all the Indians do."

She's also remarking that she will be the first Senator from Massachusetts with a Native background in interviews, so the topic seems legitimate since she's publicizing it while stonewalling Native media.

[DURHAM D]

12. I support her desire to embrace a minority heritage

instead of running away from it as is the usual case.

As for the women from Oklahoma who wanted to meet with her - I read weeks ago that they were paid operatives. And, I am sure the Native Americans who are 30% of the Oklahoma delegation and who want to meet with her want to provide support and encouragement for Warren, not confront her.

Just this week I spent several days trying to find some personal ancestry information in the Oklahoma records, specifically Cherokee. The Native American records, before and after Oklahoma became a state, are totally useless.

[yellerpup]

21. If you are looking for ancestors

who were in Indian Territory you should check The Pioneer Papers, published online by the University of Oklahoma. The Papers are from a WPA project (1938) that recorded the anecdotes/histories of the old timers. There are many volumes, but you can type in your family name and the search will point you to where you might find an interview with one of your ancestors. Fascinating stuff and a lot more interesting than browsing lists of public records.

Link: http://digital.libraries.ou.edu/whc/pioneer/

[DURHAM D]

22. Thank you for that tip.

I will check it out. I graduated from OU and used to work at the main library.

[yellerpup]

23. I hope it helps you.

It was a wonderful resource for me.

[pixierigby]

10. Also

I understand the previous commenters' arguments regarding the tangled history of Native enrollment, the effects of miscegenation, etc, but those rebuttals don't really address the fundamental question of how those realities enabled Warren to contribute to the heterogeneity at HLS. Additionally, they're hewing disturbingly close to the reductiveness of, "Humanity orginated in Africa, so we're all African-American."

If Warren does have a distant Cherokee ancestor in the recesses of her family tree, that's wonderful, but what does that fact mean if it's totally separated from exposure to customs, traditions, culture, and so forth? Warren may be "proud" enough to claim her tenuous connection to a hypothetical heritage, but evidently she wasn't so proud that she educated herself on the points of culture unique to that ancestry.

Also, the notion that because one vaguely "feels" like a certain race, one automatically is that race is just illogical in the context of an America that has a complex and often shameful history with respect to skin color. To deny that aesthetics have no relevance to questions of ethnicity and self-identifying in certain contexts (the department of labor and professional directories are implicitly equal opportunity initiatives) is to essentially negate, for example, the prejudicial undertones of Birtherism. How do you know that Donald Trump doesn't "feel" black or somehow believes that he has a black ancestor, and, consequently, who are you to say his demands for Obama's long form birth certificate are racist? That's where ethnicity-as-an-abstruct-construct leave us.

[DURHAM D]

13. She grew up in Oklahoma -

obviously you didn't or you would know that the culture, traditions, and customs are part of every day life for all Oklahomans.

[yellerpup]

16. +1

The culture, traditions, and customs of the tribes are indeed well integrated into the daily life of Oklahomans.

[bigbrother05]

19. As well as a significant part of state history taught to all students in HS

As noted, anyone living and educated in OK is quite familiar with NA culture from multiple tribal backgrounds.

[pipi_k]

18. On feeling like one is whatever...

For years and years I always felt like I must be part African American...yes, despite my light coloring.

Never found even one shred of evidence.

There was a point in my life when my dad told me about finding a black family in CT with our last name and I was horrified to think that my family might have owned slaves at one time.

What I learned was that some with our family name went to live in the south...Louisiana, etc. and others stayed in Canada, then came into NY state and eventually into Mass to work in the mills here. It's those people who are my ancestors.

Anyway, not sure of what my point is here, but it's a mystery to me as to why I would feel like I must be part black...even now when I know I'm not.