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Feb 21, 1848 – The Communist Manifesto is 167 years old today (Original Post) Ichingcarpenter Feb 2015 OP
Sad day. Communism only cost 100 million lives. Arcadiasix Feb 2015 #1
These capitalists.............. Lincoln and Marx Ichingcarpenter Feb 2015 #3
Also Communism is a failure Arcadiasix Feb 2015 #4
OK, you are in a protected forum and need to read this - TBF Feb 2015 #6
Salute, comrades! mwrguy Feb 2015 #2
I think we need to separate "what worked" from "what did not work" in Marx's message... BlueEye Feb 2015 #5
As relevent today as it was then. TBF Feb 2015 #7
Thank you Ichingcarpenter Starry Messenger Feb 2015 #8

Arcadiasix

(255 posts)
1. Sad day. Communism only cost 100 million lives.
Sat Feb 21, 2015, 06:37 AM
Feb 2015

That's the estimate of all the people killed in communist countries. Celebrating this is like celebrating Hitlers birthday. Read Gulag Archipelago by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn.

Ichingcarpenter

(36,988 posts)
3. These capitalists.............. Lincoln and Marx
Sat Feb 21, 2015, 07:10 AM
Feb 2015

These capitalists generally act harmoniously and in concert, to fleece the people.

—Abraham Lincoln, from his first speech as an Illinois state legislator, 1837



Amid all the turbulence of a burgeoning Civil War, Abraham Lincoln wanted it to be known that he was unsettled by the rising assumption “that labor is available only in connection with capital; that nobody labors unless somebody else, owning capital, somehow by the use of it induces him to labor. This assumed, it is next considered whether it is best that capital shall hire laborers, and thus induce them to work by their own consent, or buy them and drive them to it without their consent. Having proceeded so far, it is naturally concluded that all laborers are either hired laborers or what we call slaves. And further, it is assumed that whoever is once a hired laborer is fixed in that condition for life.”

That false construct could not be allowed to take hold in a free country, argued the president. It must be understood, he concluded: “Labor is prior to and independent of capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration.”


Didn’t Karl Marx take an interest in the relation of labor and capital? Was it not the coauthor of Das Manifest der Kommunistischen Partei who observed that: “the essential condition of capital is wage-labor”? And that: “Capitalist production, therefore, develops technology, and the combining together of various processes into a social whole, only by sapping the original sources of all wealth—the soil and the laborer”?

Well, there can surely be no connection, no tangible link between Abraham Lincoln, the log cabin–born, rail-splitting, archetypal nineteenth-century American and founding Republican, and Karl Marx, the bearded, brooding, archetypal “European” and proud socialist plotter.

Unless, of course, we bother to examine the tattered copies of the American outlet for Marx’s revolutionary preachments during the period when Lincoln was preparing to leave the political wilderness and make his march to the presidency. That journal, the New York Tribune, was the most consistently influential of nineteenth-century American newspapers. Indeed, this was the newspaper that engineered the unexpected and in many ways counterintuitive delivery of the Republican nomination for president, in that most critical year of 1860, to an Illinoisan who just two years earlier had lost the competition for a home-state U.S. Senate seat. The Tribune is remembered, correctly, as the great Republican paper of the day. It argued against slavery in the south. But it argued as well, with words parallel to Lincoln’s in that first address to the Congress, that “our idea is that Labor needs not to combat but to command Capital.”

Seven years before he and Lincoln served together in the Congress (during each man’s sole term in the U.S. House) Horace Greeley—or “Friend Greeley,” as Lincoln referred to the editor in their correspondence—began the Tribune with a stated purpose: “to serve the republic with an honest and fearless criticism.” He succeeded, more wholly than any American editor before or after his transit of the mid-nineteenth century, in creating a newspaper that was not merely a newspaper. Greeley’s nationally circulated Tribune was, as Clarence Darrow aptly remembered it, “the political and social Bible” of every reforming, radical and Republican household. The Tribune was surely that for Lincoln, whose engagement with the paper would last the better part of a quarter century and eventually extend to wrangling with Greeley about the proper moment at which to issue the Emancipation Proclamation. Lincoln’s involvement was not just with Greeley but with his sub-editors and writers, so much so that the first Republican president appointed one of Greeley’s most radical lieutenants—the Fourier- and Proudhon-inspired socialist and longtime editor of Marx’s European correspondence, Charles Dana—as his assistant secretary of war.


http://isreview.org/issue/79/reading-karl-marx-abraham-lincoln

BTW............ this is a protected forum and you better read up on that

and I'm not gonna rehash a rebuttal to your old 1950s john birch
tripe.

Arcadiasix

(255 posts)
4. Also Communism is a failure
Sat Feb 21, 2015, 07:21 AM
Feb 2015

Can you name one country where Communism had worked to bring peace and prosperity to the people?

TBF

(34,321 posts)
6. OK, you are in a protected forum and need to read this -
Sat Feb 21, 2015, 12:30 PM
Feb 2015

Another anti-communist posting & you will be immediately banned from this group. Thank you.

Socialist Progressives Group - SOP

Welcome to the Socialist Progressives Group. Posts in this group should generally be supportive of socialism and socialists. We are largely anti-capitalist and will not tolerate red-baiting. We welcome leftists of all persuasion as allowed per the admin's TOS. Democratic (ballot box) socialism, revolutionary socialism, Syndicalists and autonomists are all ok. Pure black flag (as opposed to red/black) anarchists who would rather organize with any anarchist than socialists, including anarcho-capitalists and libertarians, will not be welcome. If you don't know what kind of anarchist you are, cool, so long as you don't hijack and red-bait. This includes no "you're a dictator-lover" if you support the Russian Revolution. CPUSA members, please chime in.

Social Democrats are welcome with the explanation that if someone believes in "regulated" capitalism and social programs, they're a Keynesian, not a socialist. We welcome your questions as long as you're pleasant and don't red bait or shift the discussion away from socialism. You'll find many of us support Obama and his re-election given our two-party system, but this is not the forum to talk about the intricacies of elections - see the Politics forum for those conversations. We are more concerned with safe-guarding the working class gains we've made in this country thus far and encouraging the peaceful transition to socialism. Please no Trotsky or Stalin baiting, we've all seen it fracture groups and do not want to fight that battle again.

*** Updated 7/21/2014: We've been in this group for a couple of years now and we are excited to see the growth in readership. Please be aware, however, that this is a protected group. Our purpose is to view issues through a working class lens. As capitalism has become a global force we are in solidarity with workers worldwide. Expect that we will discuss the effects of capitalism on the working class in all areas - whether it agrees with the view of the current administration or not. Sometimes visitors to our group seem determined to contribute only because they feel the need to protect certain politicians or viewpoints. If you care to add a substantive and productive comment on the OPs here, in the spirit of our SOP, that kind of contribution is welcomed. Throw-away comments from newcomers who haven't posted in here before, especially of the "snark" variety, are not welcome and will not be tolerated. Either contribute in a positive way or you will be banned on either a temporary or permanent basis.

BlueEye

(449 posts)
5. I think we need to separate "what worked" from "what did not work" in Marx's message...
Sat Feb 21, 2015, 09:55 AM
Feb 2015

in order to find that sustainable middle ground. Marx's dialectical vision of a transformation of society into some worker's paradise was basically delusional. There has been enough time (and certainly the greatest efforts of the USSR) passed to say that no such communist end state can truly be achieved.

Of course, there are some positive things that revolutionary socialism brought into our awareness, like:
- Respecting and empowering workers
- Rejecting imperialism and colonial dominance of people
- A general sense of equity, that includes economic equality

Where Communism really went wrong was when Lenin adapted it to real life. The world witnessed abject failures, such as:
- State central planning. It may work in a co-op of a few hundred people, or a small village. But not in an enormous country.
- Horrifying slaughter of innocent people, death, famine.
- Massive environmental destruction
- Complete disregard for democracy. Formation of totalitarian societies of the worst kind.

Just my two cents on the matter. Capitalism and Marxism, both taken to their extremes, are undesirable systems.

TBF

(34,321 posts)
7. As relevent today as it was then.
Sat Feb 21, 2015, 12:32 PM
Feb 2015

If anyone doubts this they haven't been paying attention to the level of income inequality that has been achieved by the billionaires.

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