For all the Ukraine Flag supporters out there, a song in your honor

[hueymahl]

[blm]

1. WTF?

Why are you dumping on the many of us who support the survival of Ukraine after Russia’s unwarranted attack?

[hueymahl]

2. Like John Prine, I support peace, not war

For those who are merely supporting Ukraine and hoping for peace, this is not for you and I stand with you. But for those that cheer more arms, death, destruction and a longer war so long a the bogey-man Putin loses, I suggest you listen to this song very closely.

[blm]

3. Putin is a psychotic war-monger not a bogey-man victim.

And most of us are well-versed in Prine and his lyrics.

Perhaps you should reconsider the scolding DU angle to your post. It’s wrongheaded.

[hueymahl]

4. I don't disagree with you about Putin

But this is a discussion forum. And if I see my beloved fellow forum members and Democrats advocating for a policy I disagree with, what better place than here to discuss? Especially in the Peacemaking group?

[Deuxcents]

5. I support Ukraine's independence and their fight against the aggressors

Without apologies. I don’t remember any poster wanting more war in Ukraine or anywhere, for that matter. I don’t understand your post as what I’ve seen here is always wanting peace 🇺🇦

[hueymahl]

6. Then this post is not about you

But I do have a question for you. Would you support ending military support for the war and focus on a negotiated settlement?

[Deuxcents]

7. It's not for me to decide Ukraine's future

Having said that..after all they’ve been thru, I’m sure they’re ready to start rebuilding their lives and their country. Starting a discussion is one thing but a different approach might help

[hueymahl]

8. Fair enough

But to be fair to me, I have repeatedly gotten shouted down and censored if you don't do anything but swear allegiance to the orthodoxy, which currently is forever war in Ukraine, damned the economic and human cost.

Reminding people of the consequences of supporting war through a protest song from the Vietnam era seems to be a very delicate method to me. And effective, for at least those willing to listen.

[Beastly Boy]

10. Do you see no difference betwenn supporting the independence and sovereignty of Ukraine and

supporting the war?

Need I remind you that Ukraine neither started nor caused the war you are objecting to?

You claim to be against war. How do you propose to stop the aggressor who, time and again, starts wars of imperial conquest in violation of every settlement it previously negotiated to stop wars it started?

How does supporting Ukraine's flag change the mind of the aggressor?

[hueymahl]

11. Sounds like what the Vietnam war supporters would say

[Beastly Boy]

12. How so?

You are making a statement that has zero basis to it. Please explain, in the context of my post, what in the world made you come to your conclusion.

Quoting at least one Vietnam war supporter and drawing parallels, if any, to what I said would help.

[hueymahl]

13. How do you not see it?

Vietnam support was based on defending the south from a northern aggressor and “stopping the spread of communism” by the successor to, and predecessor of, Mother Russia.

Just waiting to see someone post “America, love it or leave it!”

[Beastly Boy]

14. Glad you provided a parallel. Now I can demonstrate how false it is.

I am assuming that by "Vietnam support" you mean the support of American proponents for US troops taking active part in the war between North and South Vietnam.

Your baseless analogy that suggests I support foreign troops actively participating in the military actions against Russian aggression in Ukraine is in no way reflected in my post and is absolutely false. Likewise, nowhere in my post did I voice support for the war in general. Nor am I concerned with stopping the spread of Russia's delusional ambitions of imperial grandeur: a child can see that Russia is incapable of sustaining it under any circumstances.

Your parallel may have been more plausible I were defending Russia's aggression against Ukraine, but even then it would be stretching it too far.

What I am supporting is the right of an independent sovereign internationally recognized state to defend its borders and its right to exist in the face of open military aggression. Hence my demand for respecting Ukraine's flag.

So are you against a country's right to self-defense? Are you in favor of one country annexing another country's territory through waging war? If so, your pacifism is very peculiar. And if not, how do you think you can stop the war by negotiating an agreement with a habitual aggressor (Russia) who repeatedly invades a sovereign state (Ukraine) in violation of every single previously negotiated agreement?

[hueymahl]

15. I'm against supporting proxy wars

Just like we supported the south Vietnamese before sending troops.

Of course I support Ukraine and their right to independence. That is a straw man used to discredit anyone who is opposed to war.

I don’t support extending the war by providing cluster munitions and increasingly lethal weapons so we can “wear down” Russia. That is just murder wrapped in the American flag.

[Beastly Boy]

16. I asked you:

-Do you see no difference between supporting the independence and sovereignty of Ukraine and supporting the war?
Need I remind you that Ukraine neither started nor caused the war you are objecting to?

To which you replied:
-Sounds like what the Vietnam war supporters would say

If you are looking for a strawman, that was it.

Not a word of condemnation of Russia, and an implicit expression of contempt for the Ukrainian flag. This does not exactly show support for Ukraine's struggle for independence, and your objection to war appears to have clear priorities: you are against supporting poxy wars, but you have no opinion about supporting wars of aggression. Tou are against supplying weapons but you have no opinion about using weapons on civilians. You are against murder wrapped in American flag, but you have nothing to say about murder wrapped in Russian flag.

Pretty weird for a principled pacifist.

[hueymahl]

17. I condemn Russia

They are the evil doer here. My position is simple. We should be looking to end the war, not prolong it. This is a proxy war, plan and simple. I support Ukraine, but we should not be sending them more munitions, especially things like cluster bombs.

It’s time to use all of our diplomatic resources to bring this to an end instead of all of our military resources, which does nothing other than kill people and enrich the military industrial complex, most of which are likely republicans.

But go ahead. Cheer on the death machine.

[Beastly Boy]

18. Curiously, my position is identical to yours.

But mine comes with a question: will a negotiated settlement with an enemy who consistently disregards all previous negotiated settlement end the war or prolong it? Likewise, will accelerating the defeat of an uncompromisingly belligerent enemy save lives in the long run or do nothing other than kill more people, including civilians?

Remember, diplomacy was the first response to Russian aggression, and it didn’t stop Russia from invading Ukraine, and it did nothing to bring the conflict to an end. On the contrary, diplomacy emboldened Russia into a full scale invasion. It didn’t happen in a vacuum.

A tough call with no clear answer, in my opinion, military industrial complex notwithstanding.

And take it easy with your choice of hyperbole. Nobody is cheering anyone or anything on in this tragedy.