What about my personal right to be free from your religion?

[Diamond_Dog]

(snip)

I’d been watching a woman on CNN make the argument she had a right to refuse to create a wedding website for a same same-sex couple. I wasn’t shocked at the case she was making as these are arguments we’ve heard before. What stunned me was the context through which we perceive personal freedoms in this country. The woman said same-sex marriage goes against her religious beliefs and the government shouldn’t force her to create a unique piece of art (the website) that goes against the basis of her religion.

Here was a woman angry that her freedom to choose who she works with could be taken away when all over the country state legislatures, as well as the Supreme Court, are taking away the freedom of women to control their own bodies. While all rights are important, the discrepancy in immediate relevance to someone’s life is obvious. Women and girls face life-threatening medical decisions involving reproductive healthcare every day. Their rights to control their own healthcare choices have been partially taken over by the government and the extremists within it. These same extremists would argue the government shouldn’t make a website designer work with gay people.

This is basically the argument the religious right continues to make: You can’t make me do something (make a website) because it offends my religion, but I can force you to do something (have a baby) because my religion says you have to.

(snip)

It is OK for the government to compel an 11-year old girl to have her uncle’s baby, but boy are we offended that someone might have to recognize a different kind of family than the one they have. How differently we view individual rights in this country. It’s all about personal freedom until they don’t agree with the kind of freedom you want.

Read more at: https://www.kentucky.com/opinion/op-ed/article270006917.html

[wryter2000]

1. Lots of Christians agree

I know a church full of them

[TreasonousBastard]

5. I even joined one. A proper reading of those "Founders" they...

keep talking about would show the guys who put this country together felt the same way. Jefferson even wrote his own Bible.

I have always thought that the whole question of abortion was a religious fight, and has no place in American debate. Believe anything you want but don't even think of forcing me to go along.

[aggiesal]

32. Jefferson didn't write his own Bible....

Jefferson took a New Testament Bible & using a razor and scissors to carefully cut out section of the Bible that had nothing to do with Jesus or his miracles.

His Bible was focused only on Jesus, but none of his mystical works. It didn’t include major scenes like the resurrection or ascension to heaven, or miracles like turning water into wine or walking on water. Instead, Jefferson’s Bible focused on Jesus as a man of morals, a teacher whose truths were expressed without the help of miracles or the supernatural powers of God. 

https://www.history.com/news/thomas-jefferson-bible-religious-beliefs

I don't know if he used the New American Bible that Catholics use, or the King James version that Protestant Christians use, or any other version.

But I do agree with your feelings that abortions are a religious issue not a political issue.

[NullTuples]

34. FYI: Jefferson's sources

He used a 1794 bilingual Latin/Greek version using the text of the Plantin Polyglot, a French Geneva Bible, and the King James Version of the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John

[aggiesal]

37. Thanks, I couldn't find which Bible(s) he used n/t

[LakeArenal]

2. You, Woman, are a vessel. Like a cake pan.

Or so I’ve been told recently.

[Diamond_Dog]

3. And your life has no value beyond that.

[LakeArenal]

4. 😉

[niyad]

6. Is that person still breathing?

[LakeArenal]

9. Yes

[ShazzieB]

14. That's Madison Cawthorne, isn't it?

So glad he won't be in Congress much longer!

[cbabe]

20. Sidenote: Cawthorn attorneys sue him

https://www.msn.com › en-us › news › politics › rep-madison-cawthorn-s-lawyers-sue-him-for-more-than-193-000-in-unpaid-fees › ar-AA15l5VA

Rep. Madison Cawthorn's lawyers sue him for more than $193,000 in ...

1 day agoAn Indiana law firm is suing Congressman Madison Cawthorn for more than $193,000. Caption: Rep. Madison Cawthorn's lawyers sue him The Bopp Law Firm said the outgoing congressman...

[Ray Bruns]

43. You can't get blood from a stone

[Shermann]

7. It all boils down to whether creating a website constitutes "expression" or not

It is valid to turn down an offer of work which requires you to express an idea that you disapprove of. Artists have been doing this since the beginning of time. To commission a painting or sculpture, the artist generally has to sign off on the request and they can turn it down for any reason whatsoever. Most people would not find this problematic. But now you have website designers and bakers trying to have this same latitude. It really comes down to whether or not the products and services are being customized to the point where it constitutes "expression". You can't turn somebody away for ordering basically the same cake from a menu as somebody else. A website design could possibly get there I suppose.

[Diamond_Dog]

11. The hypocrisy of it is what makes my blood boil. They say

“I should be free to practice my religion and I should be allowed to force it on YOU - in a much more aggressive way that could impact your health and well being.”

[Hugh_Lebowski]

12. Agreed, and frankly I'd just tell these people they've lost my business and go elsewhere

I kinda don't get the seeming obsession, esp. something so trivial as a website or a cake.

Housing, Food, Water, Medical Care/Rescue, Clothing, ... okay. You discriminate there, I'm coming down hard.

I think it's kinda the wrong fight is all. Fuck 'em, don't give them your business and move on. Nobody NEEDS a cake, or a website anyway. It gives off a vibe of 'I'm going to MAKE you be woke', and I don't think it's a particularly good look. Even though I think religion is a joke, and I make that clear at pretty much every opportunity, here and elsewhere.

This, to me, is a separate issue from abortion. That part of the OP, I agree with 100%.

[NullTuples]

35. What about hospitals? Should they be allowed to do the same?

The problem with letting one business that agrees to serve the entire public not do so based on nothing more than their opinion of potential customers is that the definition can then be expanded. This is the crux of public accommodation laws.

If she wins, can she also say that she feels her religious beliefs prohibit her from designing sites for mixed-race couples, too? What about a plumber, if they "feel" that their exquisite work is actually self-expression and thus, art? I've seen pipework in a newly framed custom home where that argument could easily be made.

But let's also not forget that this woman doesn't even have a web design business. As far as has been shown so far, she doesn't even know how to code a website, nor has she been shown to have any "artistic" skills at all. Yet the Supreme Court took her case and ignored the longstanding idea that to sue at the federal level one must have some sort of damages.

The whole thing stinks of a Federalist Society set-up.

[Shermann]

38. You are going to have paintings and sculptures clearly on one side of the fence

...then there are hospitals and hamburgers on the other.

But then you have these other products and services that fall right on the fence, and then it is up to some judge to decide.

Wedding photography, website development, that sort of thing. As has been pointed out, these tend to be non-essential things. So, it may be best to not press the issue and move on.

[NullTuples]

39. Except...GOP Federal judges are already ruling in favor of Christian hospitals.

[Shermann]

42. I'm not familiar with those cases

Is that pertaining to abortion? That's fundamentally a different issue.

[NullTuples]

45. Abortion should be seen as nothing more than health care for the person who is pregnant.

Anything different is someone forcing their religious values on someone else.

But that wasn't what I was referring to. I was referring to federal judges ruling that Christian owned or partnered hospitals - which are still businesses, open to the public - can discriminate at will against transgender people who need health care that is happily provided to non-trans people. The hospitals do so based on nothing but the assertion of their so-called "religious beliefs" that are contrary to accepted medical practices. 1 in 6 hospital beds in America are owned/controlled by the Catholic Church alone. They also target regional trauma and geographically isolated hospitals for purchase in order to force their beliefs on others. It's part of their belief system to do so (see: American Bishops Health Care Directive, which states if someone in a position of authority over others does not prevent someone like a doctor from committing a violation of Catholic rules, the decision maker also gets a black mark on their "eternal soul&quot .

Link to all pertinent major medical organizations' statements regarding transgender health care:
https://transhealthproject.org/resources/medical-organization-statements/

[CrispyQ]

8. When you get a job at a corporation/business you don't get to choose who you work with.

So only business owners are allowed that privilege? Taken to an extreme, why can't employees sue their employers because they have to work with people they disapprove of?

I hate these fucking bigots & wish their stupid rapture would happen & suck them all away.

[LakeArenal]

10. Yes rapture the hell out of them.

[Hangingon]

17. You are free to reject an offer of employment with the corporation.

[NullTuples]

36. Except, in certain states pharmacists have been granted that right, too.

Even if they're the only available pharmacist they can walk away from a customer and say, "ooooh, I don't want to help you because my I don't like you - uh, I mean, my religious opinion is that you are a bad, bad person".

[MontanaMama]

13. I want no part of organized relegion.

Some of the best xtians I know are atheists. Whenever anybody starts a conversation with his xtian they are, it’s a red flag to me. Don’t tell me how Jesusy you are. Show me. And, stay out of my personal life with your BS value systems. I was raised Catholic…keep that away from me too.

[keithbvadu2]

15. Gawd told me to control you.

[republianmushroom]

16. just christian nut jobs and there are many

being a "christian" I have or should have more right than you.

[Marthe48]

18. I posted a link to this editorial yesterday in G.D.

Thinking about this editorial since yesterday, why the argument laid out stuck in my mind.
I have always thought that there is a difference between faith and religion. I have faith, but I don't have religion- no church, no axe to grind. I told a friend of mine many years ago that her ass of an ex-husband could take away her religion, but he could never take away her faith.

The editorial validates my long held belief: religion is a bunch of made up crap about faith. Whoever is boss of the human culture generating religion puts in what will keep them powerful, and make others, less sure of their own beliefs, toe a very tenuous line. Faith is a personal outlook that can be comforting and sustaining. Religion is a social construct that people hope will help them fit into a society that is just as artificial.

[Hope22]

21. Spiritual without a base religion ....

Is how I describe it.

[Marthe48]

29. Thank you for the succinct comment

I know what I feel is special to me, and except for saying I've been blessed, I can't describe how I'm visited by divinity.

[lees1975]

24. Well said! That's about as clear as I've ever heard anyone put it.

Jefferson and Madison really had it right, though most people ignore what they wrote and said and try to keep using "religion" as an institution for political power. Madison said that his desire in separating church from state was to keep the kind of bloodshed that stained the soil of Europe for hundreds of years away from these shores. Jefferson was more casual, insisting that "It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no god, it neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."

[Marthe48]

30. Thank you

Thanks for the historical viewpoints of the founding fathers. Their ideas shielded our country from bloodshed all these years and the fascists have taken the 4 freedoms away from us. The current far-right seditionists don't deserve American citizenship.

https://www.fdrlibrary.org/four-freedoms

[Diamond_Dog]

25. I'm sorry I didn't see it Marthe

A friend sent me this link this morning

I apologize for the duplicate post

[Marthe48]

28. Oh n.p. Diamond_Dog

It wasn't in LBN, so I didn't use the headline for my title. and I didn't use excerpts. So much is easy to miss! However this one is spread, is great! Thank you!

[E. Normus]

19. Yes,

Freedom of religion also means freedom from religion. It should, in fact, go without saying.

[bucolic_frolic]

22. Live and let live. Tolerance. Freedom for all, not just for one. /nt

[Joinfortmill]

23. Move this to the Greatest Threads, please.

[orthoclad]

26. Monotheism

is unique from other pagan religions in that the female principle is denied, and only the patriarch is recognized. A "jealous god", indeed.

Despite this, people have an innate yearning to be included in the "divine", so we have Virgin worship (castrated from her full femaleness), female saints, etc.

People form congregations for community, and the best recognize their humbleness before infinity.

My father grew up under a state religion. We must not repeat that mistake.

[Warpy]

27. Nothing looks more illigical than someone else's religion

but all illogical beliefs require consensus. That's where the friction comes in and too many wars have been fought over it, especially when that desert sky god is behind it all.

Relgious freedom isn't the freedom to bully other people into giving lip service to your own religion, it's the freedom to follow your own religion and the responsibility to mind your own fucking business when it comes to people outside it.

It's a pity the framers didn't put it that way.

[DallasNE]

31. Same Song Sung By Pharmacists

That refuse to fill a prescription. They get coddled and get their way. Fire them on the spot for insubordination. End of story. You don't hand it off to another employ. And what nonsense to call the product of a web page design a work of art. The programmer does not have control of the functionality of the project. They just convert the design specs into program code that performs the desired functions. Any Judge that swallows this simpleton reasoning needs to have their head examined.

[Skittles]

33. free from your delusions

yes indeed

[dalton99a]

40. Kick

[Hestia]

41. "Your Freedoms End Where Mine Begin"

[lees1975]

44. Freedom of religion is a sub point of freedom of conscience.

That's what America's founders believed, and left behind plenty of written documentation of their beliefs.

If everyone is not free, then no one is free.