Rebels launch 'intense' attacks on Ukraine government troops: Kiev military

[another_liberal]

Source: Reuters

(Reuters) - Pro-Russian rebels launched new attacks against Ukrainian government positions on Sunday, the Kiev army said, as Western countries threatened more sanctions against Moscow for backing a new separatist offensive.

Recent days have seen the worst fighting in eastern Ukraine since a September ceasefire, restarting a war that has already killed more than 5,000 people. Rebels have announced an offensive and launched an assault on Saturday on Mariupol, a major port of 500,000 people, where Kiev said thirty civilians were killed by shelling. Kiev officials said the offensive continued on Sunday along other areas in the front, which winds through two eastern provinces partially controlled by the separatists.

"Rebels are attacking the positions of anti-terrorist operation troops extremely intensively, using artillery, mortars, grenade launchers, tanks," military spokesman Andriy Lysenko said in a televised briefing. He said four Ukrainian servicemen had been killed and 17 injured in the past 24 hours and reported that rebel attacks on the town of Debaltseve, northeast of separatist-held Donetsk, had been particularly fierce. "Because of constant shelling in the past few days, there are dead and injured among local residents. Around 60 homes have been destroyed or damaged," he said without giving a figure for the number of casualties.

Rebel leader Alexander Zakharchenko said on Saturday the separatists planned to encircle Debaltseve, which has a population of around 26,000.

(snip)



Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/01/25/us-ukraine-crisis-idUSKBN0KY0PF20150125

---

This civil war gets worse every passing day. The suffering of civilians caught up amidst the fighting in the middle of winter has to be terrible. Yet our government is willing to announce plans for deploying more military equipment, as well as military advisers and trainers, to support our side in the fighting? Is encouraging a full-blow war in eastern Europe really to our advantage as a member of the community of nations?

[uhnope]

1. "Civil war" my ass

Russian troops, Russian weapons, Russian control over eastern Ukraine

You Putin sympathizers should hide in shame over the carnage and the warmaking that he has brought on

[another_liberal]

2. I sympathize with both sides . . .

That is, I sympathize with the people on both sides. The leaders can all go screw themselves.

I am quite certain a big majority of the common people on both sides want the fighting to end, and for differences to be settled by negotiation and compromise.

[muriel_volestrangler]

4. Can we finally quote you as saying "Putin can go screw himself", then?

It would make a change from seeing that RWer defended here on DU by you.

[another_liberal]

14. I have been a defender of Russia's right to equal treatment under international law . . .

I have never been a defender of President Putin or his governing policies. I do not want our country to go to war with Russia over Ukraine, but that is not the same as supporting what Russia's government does when responding to our provocations. The fixation on President Putin is not on my part, it is on the part of those who see him as a personification of all they hate and fear in the World generally.

[NickB79]

15. "our provocations"

Nice weasel words there.

[another_liberal]

16. "Weasel words" Is that meant as an insult?

Explain yourself.

[NickB79]

21. Explain? Again? Nah, I'll pass

If the multiple refutations of your statements by dozens of other DU posters over the months haven't cleared things up yet, I don't think there's much left for me to add.

[another_liberal]

35. The complaints and insults of a few are regrettable, sure . . .

They are, however, only a small percent of those who read my OPs and comments.

[newthinking]

46. Many agree but it is natural they don't want to post and subject themself to the proliphic bullying

few that clog up everything on this matter.

[another_liberal]

54. I don't know if they really want a war with Russia or just hate President Putin exclusively.

Is their hatred of the Russian President so intense they can't see what this desire to attack him is leading us toward? They have become the tools of neo-con war-mongers, whatever the reason.

[Duckhunter935]

59. of course we should just give Putin what ever he wants

what country is next, Estonia, Latvia, Finland?

[another_liberal]

62. The real question should be . . .

What country will America want next, assuming we do succeed in consuming the entire Ukraine?

Once our mighty Empire stops growing, of course, it will begin to wither and die on the vine.

[Duckhunter935]

64. well since we do not annex countries

like Russia, that question is not worth answering. Those European countries can align with whom ever they want. Ukraine was going to align with the west until the former President that left the office vacant went against what he was elected on and fled in the middle of the night after packing for days to take his loot.

[another_liberal]

66. The term is "hegemony" . . .

It means overwhelming economic and military domination. Once our Western Empire has that, the remnant trappings of sovereignty can be left to the conquered. It allows a good show of continued independence, while still transferring all meaningful control to the Imperial masters.

[Adrahil]

79. Look, you expose your try position when you avoid all challenges...

And actively DEFEND Russia's annexation of Crimea in violation of all international norms.

Sorry, you and your buddy have here no credibility on this matter.

[newthinking]

80. I have posted many times my basis

There are people here that spend every hour of the day on the site. I don't think I have to be available to answer every query, especially when it is obvious that the person pushing is not really interested in having a open dialog but has already decided what they believe.

If you are really interested do a search or look at my journal.
However, if you are just looking to insult others who have formed different opinions find someone else to beat on.

[Duckhunter935]

81. "has already decided what they believe"

That would also be you

[newthinking]

83. was I talking to you?

no.

[Duckhunter935]

84. still fits though

how civil of you

[Adrahil]

85. Oh you responded, you just ducked the questions and...

... Mounted your ridiculous defense of the annexation of Crimea.

That's a far cry from just wanted to promote peace.

[newthinking]

86. what freaking questions?

Do you think I follow around your posts like you and a few others seem to do people who you disagree with?

So far I know that you do not agree with the analysis that what happened in Ukraine was the people's will there.
Other than that you mention no specifics about what you disagree with in that analysis nor what question you want answered. Then you post telling me I am avoiding you. Whatever I am supposed to answer is not in this thread so care to tell me what you are going on about?

Is it something on another OP that I did not see?

PS, don't go off on me and blame me for the end of world peace if I don't respond right away. I should be heading to bed soon.

[Adrahil]

17. Yeah, don't hold your breath.

I suspect that statement was a pro-forma declaration. Since his news source of choice is RT, I suspect he REALLY means "it's all the West's fault."

[uhnope]

5. sounds like a pang of conscience

[Duckhunter935]

9. twice so far

kind of hard to defend Putin and his minions as they now are seizing more territory in violation of the cease fire they signed.

[uhnope]

12. hey, you never know. People learn. People realize they were wrong.

Never me of course. (heh)

[Fred Sanders]

77. The leaders on both and all sides and proxies can all screw themselves for sending pawns in to die for them to

settle disputes that can not ever be settled by sending pawns in to die...for what...because, reasons?

How does either sides "leaders" justify using innocents as their pawns, how the fuck can they be your pawn pieces when they can not even play the fucking game yet; who consented?

Because diplomacy has fully failed ? Talks produced no results yet? So the fuck what? Is everyone in a fucking hurry to kill each other instead?

Diplomacy takes time, it takes enforcement against the saboteurs, the usual suspects, and it takes trust....give it a chance, there are not too many interests arrayed against a diplomatic solution to stop the lunacy of petty men killing everyone but themselves.

[Duckhunter935]

82. Wel Fred, we agree on something

I guess it had to happen eventually

[Duckhunter935]

6. not a civil war

when one side is supplied with troops and weapons from a another much larger country.

[reorg]

29. 'outta my face, outta my face, please'

Ostensibly 'Ukrainian' soldier to Ukrainian reporter asking a question in Mariupol:

Mariupol, 26/01/15

[Duckhunter935]

30. yep, it appears he speaks english

Do not know where he is from but there are a few on the Ukrainian side from the US and western countries.

I am sure you are pointing out the same thing on the "pro-Russian" side with the Cossacks, Chechens, and Russian. They just blend a little better but it is well known they are there.

The only known American-born soldier fighting for the Ukrainian government against pro-Russian separatists has been killed in battle, an Interior Ministry official said.

Mark Gregory Paslawsky, 55, was among nine Ukrainian troops killed during intense fighting in the transportation hub of Ilovaysk, near Donetsk, Ukrainian Interior Ministry adviser Anton Gerashchenko said Wednesday in a Facebook post.



Paslawsky was born in New York to a Ukrainian-American family, but moved to Ukraine after the country gained independence after the 1991 Soviet collapse. He told Vice News in an interview earlier this month that he had taken up Ukrainian citizenship before joining the battalion in order to "fight as a Ukrainian."

"I'm of Ukrainian descent, and because of my parents' background I'm entitled to immediate Ukrainian citizenship," Paslawsky, who also went by the nom de guerre of "Franko," told Vice News.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/us-born-soldier-killed-while-fighting-separatists-in-eastern-ukraine/505574.html

This was the last time the "pro-Russian's provided a safe corridor for Ukrainian soldiers. I hope it is not the same in Debaltseve.

[another_liberal]

37. They changed the name to "Academi" . . .

Otherwise, it's still Eric Prince's plain old "Blackwater."

Perhaps they staged the rocket attack, as a false flag operation to pin on the Separatists. The guy recorded here may have been sent to check and make sure no evidence of their involvement remained.

[Duckhunter935]

40. Oh yes,

there you go again saying Ukraine is firing on its own positions,

"Perhaps they staged the rocket attack, as a false flag operation to pin on the Separatists"

that is truly getting just sickening. What proof of this do you have again?

I will stick with the experts

Evidence indicates that separatist forces were responsible for this attack: the Grad rockets struck government-controlled territory, the craters and rocket remnants stuck in the ground clearly indicate that the rockets came from due east, the direction of the frontline, and a rebel leader announced today that the rebel attack on Mariupol has begun in revenge for an attack Thursday that killed 13 people in a trolleybus in rebel-controlled Donetsk.

http://www.hrw.org/news/2015/01/24/dispatches-rebels-likely-behind-deadly-rocket-attacks-mariupol

The SMM conducted a crater analysis and its initial assessment showed that the impacts were caused by Grad and Uragan rockets. According to the impact analysis, the Grad rockets originated from a north-easterly direction, in the area of Oktyabr (19 km north-east of Olimpiiska Street), and the Uragan rockets from an easterly direction, in the area of Zaichenko (15 km east of Olimpiiska Street), both controlled by the “Donetsk People’s Republic” (“DPR”).

http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/136061

[uhnope]

52. so much for "pangs of conscience". These Putin sympathizers are psychopathic. nt

[newthinking]

74. well that comment is richly ironic lol

[another_liberal]

55. Like the experts who went on television to tell us again and again . . .

They knew Saddam had all kinds of WMDs, and that they knew exactly where those WMDs are hidden.

Those were top-flight experts too, the best MIC money could buy.

[Duckhunter935]

58. Yes, I know you said it was a false flag operation

and Ukraine fired on the city. You and RT keep thinking that.

The rest of the civilized world will have the facts and know the "pro-Russians killed a bunch of people by hitting Mariupol with their MLRS systems.

[another_liberal]

61. I don't know what happened Mariupol . . .

But I do doubt if "the rest of the civilized World" will believe anything the U.S. claims is the truth either. Lets face it, the only reasons anyone even pretends to believe us anymore are our money and our potential to cause them massive harm if they don't at least pretend.

[Duckhunter935]

63. you seem to know

you even seem to have your own fucked up theory

I have never once seen you state it was more than likely the "pro-Russians"

Perhaps they staged the rocket attack, as a false flag operation to pin on the Separatists. The guy recorded here may have been sent to check and make sure no evidence of their involvement remained.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=997555

I tend to believe OSCE and HRW but I guess since they are not RT they are not trustworthy.

[another_liberal]

71. You need to start being a bit more polite . . .

How "fucked up" is that for a theory?

[Duckhunter935]

72. Thanks, I will try

it's still a loony theory though

Thanks

[newthinking]

47. We hate blackwater-- until they are doing our version of "gods work"

[JonLP24]

89. Then Yemen isn't a civil war then

Syria isn't a civil war. Tunisia, Egypt wasn't. The concern in Sudan was abandoned so that probably qualifies as a civil war. Others probably. Nor Iraq

Columbia probably wouldn't classify as a civil war in in Columbia their government is backed by Western governments (and by far more private militias -- it gives me the creeps wondering what corporations & for what reasons are they paying these guys). The revolutionaries are backed by Cuba & Venezuela. I'm reminded of racketeers for capitalism for some reason. I think the context can be traced to the assassination of a populist.

[JonLP24]

87. Is the Yermen not really a civil war because US drones are there?

Iran backed militia fought sunni insurgents and brutalized sunni citizens, was that really an Iraq-Iran war or "insurgents" or "operation Iraqi freedom"?

Is this really where all these "Putin sympathizer" claims come from? Really? It is amazing how easily we forgot the Yugoslavia Wars and no suddenly view this as a Ukraine vs Russia matter.

Remember "we're all Georgians" and since it was an election year we had plenty of "Putin sympathizers" finding evidence pointing Georgia are hardly saints in the matter but still showed his statement was foolish on so many levels.

Yugoslavia wars are still being fought & to some extent the World Wars are still be fought in some places, but in a situation like Ukraine there is a remarkable amount of people pro-Russia. None of it effects me & have such a low amount of a understanding in how to solve these resentments & grudges but the US & Nato should stay the F out and get out of coming up with political solutions & picking sides. I don't understand the knee-jerk Russia hate myself, this has been some tit-for-tat shit going way back so saying one is right & the other is wrong and going to so far & laugh at "civil war" like it is some wild ass conspiracy. Identity politics.

[NickB79]

3. I'm sure they'll run out of captured Ukranian munitions any day now

I mean, where else could they be getting all this firepower other than captured arms depots? It's not like they could possibly be getting resupplies from somewhere else, right?

Right?

[another_liberal]

8. They have captured a great deal from Kiev's forces, much of it in just the last few days . . .

They also have some ammunition production of their own which has been greatly expanded since the fighting started last Spring.

As to supplies from abroad, we can assume a good deal is coming to them from a number of foreign sources, though anyone smuggling weapons in would be taking a huge risk of discovery by the drones, satellites and spies on the ground.

[NickB79]

13. Oh good, I was afraid their Russian tanks would run out of ammo

Being so far from home and all:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/23/us-ukraine-crisis-tanks-exclusive-idUSKCN0IC1GE20141023

Reuters showed photographs of the two badly damaged tanks, one of which had lost its turret, to four independent military experts, who said they were of a type used exclusively by the Russian army.

At least one, they agreed, was a T-72BM - a Russian-made modification of a well known Soviet tank. This version of the tank, they said, is not known to have been exported.

"It is operated by the Russian Army in large numbers, but crucially it is not known to have been exported or operated outside of Russia," Joseph Dempsey, a military analyst for the London-based International Institute for Strategic Studies, wrote in late August when a tank like that was discovered on grainy footage of rebel convoy.

"The presence of this variant in Ukraine therefore strongly supports the contention that Russia is supplying arms to separatist forces," Dempsey said.

[another_liberal]

18. A couple of tanks . . .

Two tanks of a type "not known to have been exported," but (one can assume) they might have been? That doesn't amount to much of an, "Invasion of Ukraine by Russia!"

Would three tanks and a few trucks mean Paris is at risk?

[NickB79]

20. Who hasn't lost a few tanks here and there, right?

If an M1 Abrams showed up in Toronto and opened fire on a police station, what's the big deal? It's just another lost tank, the crew took her out for a joyride off the base and just took a wrong turn in upstate New York, I'm sure.

[another_liberal]

31. Does the Canadian Army use the Abrams, that might explain it?

You could be right, though I'd have to check.

[JonLP24]

90. ISIS is driving around in US tanks & other US military vehicles

and have US military weapons. Hell we sold 70 billion worth to Saudi Arabia a few years ago, threw in some tanks & fighter jets to Egypt as a sweetener to entice them to join the fight against ISIS but US appears to be so incredibly brain dead that they give all this to Saudi Arabia which are believers, followers, & enforcers of the same ISIS ideology. WTF is really going on behind the scenes? In any case they still ended up with a remarkable amount of our equipment.

[muriel_volestrangler]

23. That didn't take long - making excuses for Russian army tanks in Ukraine already?

A whole 10 minutes after saying you don't defend Putin's international policies, you're saying "it's only a few tanks he sent into another country ...".

[another_liberal]

32. It's not Putin with me, I told you that . . .

It's about fairness (that and an overpowering distaste for flirting with nuclear war). That's just how I am.

[Duckhunter935]

34. Yes we all know

Ukraine just needs to bow down to the stronger Russia and give up the land it wants.

[Adrahil]

48. Really? Well let's hear you directly criticize Putin on this matter.

He's been all about escalation and rhetoric positioning himself in opposition to the West. He COULD, of course, ratchet this whole thing down considerably just be shutting down the clandestine support for the rebels. And don;t give us this whole "captured munitions" BS. There is no way they have captured the munitions necessary to conduct the tempo of operations they maintained, and you know it.

Then again, maybe you don;t since your were pedaling that patently ridiculous fairy tale of an freakin' SU-25 shooting down MH17. You clearly either know NOTHING about this topic, or you're a shill. Maybe both.

[Duckhunter935]

53. amazing

I do not even think the US could mantain that supply train. This does not take into account the the Ukrainian military has been not funded for 25 years at any level. A lot of there equipment does not function as it has not been maintained. But the "pro-Russians" have brand new equipment and the tires are not even worn.

[Adrahil]

78. Apparently they were just all in some depot in the east, unused! Who knew!? n/t

[Duckhunter935]

22. Don't you know

that equipment was on "vacation" and so are all of the resupplies they are getting.

[MattSh]

39. And yet there's been no verified photos and videos....

although everybody these days have cell phone that can do both.

[newthinking]

43. But you live there so you can't know anything.

Only the keyboard cold warriors "fighting" from abroad who have never been to the region ... well they know the truth and those of us who know the country and people personally are always "putinistas".

Stay safe MattSH.

[Duckhunter935]

24. not the amount they are using

massive offensive along the entire front line, over a year of grad attacks and artillery barrages. Must have a hell of a manufacturing base to keep up with that. The US would have issues with that resupply.

[Igel]

25. I will wait for Lavrov's condemnation.

After all, one side has clearly opted for a military solution to the problem there. And as we know, Putin and Lavrov have both come out clearly in the strongest of words against there being a military solution or trying to find one.

Many others have echoed them in condemning any side that seeks one.

Oddly, as soon as it's no longer claims being made against Ukraine, the vitriol moderates rather strongly to one of absolute even-handedness, at best.

Condemnation is really for one side. And when support can't be sustained because of how bad the "good" side is, one has to adopt neutrality as an interim measure.

But hey, the 3-year-old girl who had her legs amputated yesterday in Mariupol was just another Ukrainian fascist, I guess. Even though she's almost certainly Russian-speaking. Meanwhile, RT makes claims that suggest that the real target was Western (perhaps Americans) in Mariupol, while running yet another "Look at how militaristic Russia is" article to unanimous jingoist applause and pacifist silence.

[Duckhunter935]

28. And you do know

Ukraine's military has been neglected and underfunded since the early 90's. They do not have much operational equipment and stockpiles for resupply. one of the reasons they are taking donations. I guess Russia is just a bigger in it's donations.

[NickB79]

7. I'm sure Putin is openly weeping over the suffering at this very minute

As his paid mercs shell civilians in Debaltseve.......

[another_liberal]

10. I hadn't heard any details about that situation yet . . .

Do you have a link to your source?

[NickB79]

11. Video: The fight to defend Ukraine’s strategic Debaltseve

http://www.france24.com/en/20150123-video-ukraine-military-defend-strategic-eastern-town-debaltseve-pro-russia-separatists/

Pro-Russian separatists have surrounded the town on three sides, regularly battering it with artillery fire. There is only one road into Debaltseve from Ukrainian-held territory.

“The bombardment is ongoing, as you've heard,” Yevgeny Yukhanov, Debaltseve’s chief of police, told FRANCE 24 on Thursday. “We've had two people wounded already this morning.”

snip

Meanwhile, Debaltseve’s inhabitants are living in a town under siege.

“I live in a five-storey building. The fifth storey got hit and collapsed. At my age I have to take shelter in someone else’s home,” Lyubov (who did not give her last name), a local resident, said. “I blame both sides [for the fighting].”

It's even mentioned in the link you posted to start this thread:

Rebel leader Alexander Zakharchenko said on Saturday the separatists planned to encircle Debaltseve, which has a population of around 26,000.

[another_liberal]

19. Thanks for the link to some more details.

[Igel]

26. And perhaps they can show Russian honor as they did last time.

Say, "Yes, we will allow you to retreat."

And then shell the retreating troops, ambulances, and wounded to kill as many possible while trumpeting how they're allowing them to retreat in order to spare lives. (Same with the civilian deaths. They only get reported if they're of the right sort. #Ukrainianlivesmatter.

If it's not reported out of Moscow, then it's not really news.

[another_liberal]

33. It's time to end the fighting . . .

It's far past time, in fact.

[Duckhunter935]

36. Tell that to Putin

He can start by pulling his troops and equipment from the border. He can do that in a minute. That would be a powerful signal to the "pro-Russians". Until they stop taking new ground Ukraine can not stop trying to defend what they have from the ongoing offensive.

[another_liberal]

38. Kiev needs to agree to talk to the Separatists, face-to-face and as equals.

Those talks should begin at once. Any preconditions must be set aside. Don't demand the fighting stop before talks can begin. Fighting will only be stopped through talking and compromise. Any other course of action risks a much bigger, much worse war beginning.

[Duckhunter935]

41. Kiev has agreed to talk and

even passed the special status laws

I am getting seriously tired that Russia does not have to do a fucking thing, they are the poor oppressed country, BULLSHIT. They need to move their fucking military away from the border to calm things down. Putin can do that TODAY

[another_liberal]

67. Russia has to look to its own defenses . . .

The United States and her NATO allies don't bother with declarations of war anymore. They attack preemptively and without provocation, letting negotiation wait until after the defender has already been crushed and defeated.

Do you really expect Russia to leave its borders undefended in the face of the current US/NATO build-up of offensive forces near its territory? Get real!

[Duckhunter935]

68. has the US or NATO attacked Russia?

No

Has Russia attacked Ukraine? Yes
Has Russia threatened other European countries? Yes

Move the troops and equipment away from the active war zone, the US and NATO are not going to attack and he fucking knows it. As long as he keeps them there, he can supply arms and people across the unmonitored border.

[Duckhunter935]

42. since it looks like you and others avoid my posts

The pro-Russians and Russians have pulled out of the JCCC in Debaltseve as they are being attacked by the "Pro-Russians".

At the JCCC headquarters in government-controlled Debaltseve (55 km north-east of Donetsk) the Ukrainian Major-General, Head of the Ukrainian side to the JCCC, was present together with his officers. Officers of the Russian Federation Armed Forces were absent as they are currently in Soledar (77 km north of Donetsk, government-controlled), with “DPR” and “Lugansk People’s Republic” (“LPR”) members. The Ukrainian Major-General told the SMM that on 22 January there was the shelling of Debaltseve, followed by tanks and infantry assaults, from the directions of Fashchivka (66 km north-east of Donetsk, “LPR- controlled), Chornukhyne (62 km north-east of Donetsk, “LPR”-controlled), Horlivka (35 km north-east of Donetsk, “DPR”-controlled) and Vuhlehirsk (48 km north-east of Donetsk, government-controlled). He also said that the most problematic areas in terms of security are Shchastiya (132 km north-east of Donetsk, government-controlled), Vesela Hora (131 km north-east of Donetsk, “LPR”-controlled), and Krymske (108 km north-east of Donetsk, government-controlled). According to the Major-General, intense fighting had also taken place in the area between the Donetsk airport and Avdiivka (14 km north-west of Donetsk, government-controlled).

http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/136056

I fear this will fall shortly as the agreed to cease fire is dead and the "Pro-Russians" are getting stronger after months of being supplied by Russia.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026135659

[Duckhunter935]

27. It's only been going on for months

I will tell you what they need and will push the attack

Mariupol, need the port and as part of the Russian land bridge
Debaltseve, need that road and rail junction
Shchastya, need the power plant

They will push to Slovyansk and Berdyansk and if they can get away with it Kharkiv and Odessa

[newthinking]

44. The rebels are going on the offensive. It only makes sense though, as Kiev is readying for 3 major

offensives.

While Poroshenko is careful to only talk peace to the western press, at the same time he has openly stated that there will be 3 new offensives this year and they are preparing for them (funny that, it is openly on Ukraine and Russian media but nowhere to be found on western media, how can that be?). Effectively Ukraine has shown that it does not intend to fully impliment any peace protocols. They are only buying time and trying to secure weapons and training.

The rebels (or any fighting unit in such situation) are not going to just sit by. They still have the advantage in firefights (mostly due to the morale on Kiev's side, most Ukrainians do not want to fight). It is simply the nature of conflict that they would go on the offensive. It is that or die.

All the more reason for the international community to stop playing favorites and start pressuring Kiev to really work toward resolution.

Even if one believes that the people in the east (and Crimea for that matter) want to be re-united with Kiev fully, they certainly don't want war.

Since what is done is done from a humane standpoint people would far rather live to work towards what they want in the future. If they are dead they have no future period. Why the hell do many on a liberal board believe that it is better to arm Kiev than to pressure them and the rebels (or Russia if one believes fully the propaganda) and bring in peacekeepers?

Direct peaceful intervention has never occurred, because the west has given peaceful messages in one hand while giving very direct war messages in the other. That is NOT a peace effort.

[jakeXT]

50. Maybe it’s a company, maybe it’s a whole battalion, we don’t know yet until we do the survey.”

Army looking to store tanks, equipment in Eastern Europe

U.S. Army Europe will soon dispatch a survey team to eastern Europe to scout locations for tanks and other military hardware as part of a broader effort to bolster the U.S. military presence in a region rattled by Russia’s intervention in Ukraine, the Army’s top commander in Europe said Friday.

“We are doing surveys here in the next few weeks up in Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Romania and Bulgaria to see if there is a place where perhaps some of that equipment could be stored there,” USAREUR chief Lt. Gen. Ben Hodges said during an interview with Stars and Stripes. “Maybe it’s a company, maybe it’s a whole battalion, we don’t know yet until we do the survey.”

In 2015, the Army expects to rotate a full-sized, U.S.-based heavy brigade of some 3,000 troops and additional tanks and other armored vehicles through Europe in connection with the service’s Regionally Aligned Force initiative. Last year, the program kicked off on a smaller scale, bringing combat tanks back into Europe after a brief absence following the elimination of two Germany-based heavy brigades in 2013. Now, the regional concept is picking up steam, with plans for 220 armored vehicles in Europe.

“The big question for us right now is ‘where are they going to go?’ Obviously, a part is going to stay here,” Hodges said, referring to the Grafenwöhr training area. “We really want to put some in southeastern Europe, some in the Baltics, some in Poland. Those countries want them bad — an obvious reason, they’re a deterrent aspect.”

http://www.stripes.com/army-looking-to-store-tanks-equipment-in-eastern-europe-1.325693

[bemildred]

45. Ukraine plans to bring charges against separatists in The Hague

By Thomas Koerbel and Christian Boehmer, dpa

Moscow (dpa) - The pro-Western government in Ukraine announced Sunday that it plans to bring charges before the International Criminal Court in The Hague against the pro-Russian separatists it blames for the large number of civilian deaths in the east of Ukraine.

The Ukrainian government would also like to have the self-proclaimed People's Republic of Donetsk and Lugansk declared a terrorist organization internationally.

In response to Saturday's attack on the port city of Mariupol, in which at least 30 civilians were killed, Ukraine's National Security Council has ordered new weapons for its armed forces.

The government and the separatists have blamed each other for the attacks.

http://www.dpa-international.com/news/international/ukraine-plans-to-bring-charges-against-separatists-in-the-hague-a-44004731.html

[another_liberal]

56. That really makes me suspect a "false flag" operation in this case . . .

Sounds more and more like Kiev's fascists decided to "sacrifice" a few civilians to gain some big time international support.

At any rate, some day we'll know the truth.

[Jesus Malverde]

49. "anti-terrorist operation troops"

losers, guess the cookies aren't so sweet.

[another_liberal]

57. Vicky Nuland isn't a very good cook . . .

Neither when it comes to staging governmental coups, or to baking cookies.

[jakeXT]

60. Maybe the next meal will be bigger

The “Impending” Russian Maidan


The coordinated manipulation of global energy prices, a NATO build-up in Eastern Europe, and the rekindling of terrorism in Russia’s southern Caucasus region all appear to be ever-increasing crescendos toward a much larger event – a “Russian Maidan.”

The necessary components of a successful Western bid to overthrow the Russian political order include a political front protesting in Russia’s major cities, as well as a full-spectrum economic war to put pressure on Russia’s population, increasing dissent as well as swelling the ranks of staged protests Wall Street and Washington put in Russian streets. Another necessary component includes armed components to act under cover of “peaceful protesters” to escalate street demonstrations, prevent security forces from restoring order, and to carry out the actual physical overthrow of these security forces.

These elements could all be seen in neighboring Ukraine – a nation in which America and NATO’s incessant meddling is a matter of long-standing public record. The Guardian would admit in its 2004 article, “US campaign behind the turmoil in Kiev,” that (emphasis added):

…while the gains of the orange-bedecked “chestnut revolution” are Ukraine’s, the campaign is an American creation, a sophisticated and brilliantly conceived exercise in western branding and mass marketing that, in four countries in four years, has been used to try to salvage rigged elections and topple unsavoury regimes.

First appeared: http://journal-neo.org/2014/12/20/the-impending-russian-maidan/

[another_liberal]

65. That may not be nearly as easy as the Maidan coup apparently was . . .

If the Western Empire-Builders were smart, they would settle for most of Ukraine, at least for the moment. It might even be time to hold-up awhile and readjust to the new situation they have created in eastern Europe. That would not, however, be their style.

[Red Mountain]

69. If the Western empire-builders (lowercase) were smart

They would give the Ukrainians everything they needed to defend their territory against a ragtag band of rebels. And then some.

It will become very clear where the men and munitions are coming from on the rebel side if they're pushed hard enough.

Then maybe Russia will be willing to sit down and talk to end the bloodshed.

[another_liberal]

70. You want me, the American taxpayer, to finance this latter day Imperial adventure . . .

To be played out halfway around the World on the very border of the Russian Federation?

I'd rather burn my money for the heat it would give off. It would be more sensible.

[Duckhunter935]

73. I would hope it never comes to that

But with the "pro-Russians' now having a bigger military than Ukraine had, they might need more defensive help. Counter mortar batteries and anti-armor systems.

[newthinking]

75. so you want the war to escalate?

It is easy to feel that way from a comfortable computer far far away.

I would prefer we pressure more for peace thank you. Borders and governments can change. I think people really would rather live to "fight" another day.

This whole thing is fucked up because we live in an age where there are no real rules and wars are often fought and encouraged for money or money interests. Even if the worst of the western narrative was true, this situation does not meet "just war" theory or any other civil assessment.

I have no doubt that if the US and Europe had really wanted peace and to put their money where their mouth is there would be peace by now. But they want a peace that is only around certain strategic and financial interests, and they could care less about the people that die as a result.

[Duckhunter935]

76. and we all know Russia has nothing to do with this

It is just the evil west and Europe. Give me a break.

[JonLP24]

88. It is amazing how many people laugh at what you say

You have to go way, way back -- even as far as to the Byzentine period to make better sense of the conflict & its just a mess I couldn't even begin to get into who is right or wrong. I do know the US & western governments shouldn't continue to pick a side, now one side is completely a victim and they even go so far to laugh at your civil war claims.

Why the fuck why there were even protests then? Much less a revolution. Sure Russia backs & supports the pro-Russia parts, however the disparity in military support & allies is so much further on the other side. The US needs to stop, US needs to get away and understand based on our well known failures that the US shouldn't be in the business of fixing political identity disputes or territorial ones--you know many times Ukraine's borders changed?

[another_liberal]

91. If our bankers and big energy corporations hadn't insisted on looting Ukraine . . .

None of this need have happened, none of the destruction, waste or death need have taken place.

A few greedy men and women saw a chance to control more of the World's markets and resources by dominating Ukraine. They corruptly used the West's diplomatic and financial might to overthrow the democratically elected Ukrainian government, thinking that would result in a done deal and everything would just fall in their laps.

Then, suddenly, the Crimea was not going to be theirs after all, and even the Donbas coal and oil reserves looked to be slipping away! So, they pressured their puppets in Kiev to employ military force to take it back (for them).

[JonLP24]

92. I saw something about a coup

and reports & pictures demonstrations & protests. Didn't dig too much through the details, I just know enough there isn't a white hat vs black hot to this & Russia is being portrayed as the black hat in this conflict. When the entire West and its allies lines up against you, you lose the information war badly. Russian Times is immediately viewed as uncredible but I haven't seen anything Pro Russia propaganda wise, outside of a perception bias which the Western media has themselves I haven't seen anything except a willingness to report a far-fetched conspiracy but there differences from Western Media are far more interesting & innovative & doesn't reek of the propaganda like Fox News does.

In Columbia where we basically have no information with the occasional mention US is aiding the Columbian's government efforts to combat "Narco-Terrorists" take a look at the troubling allies which includes that standard Western democracies but also a larger list of different corporation funded mercenaries. The other side is a several groups of revolutionaries with backing from Cuba & Venezuela.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colombian_conflict_%281964%E2%80%93present%29

I can only image the horrors & nightmares going on there we have no idea about. What's with all the private militias on one side for instance? It only creeps me out to try to figure out the answer.

Venezuela or Chavez was one who badly lost the information war. A coup against him failed because of a popular rising. The press freedoms he took away press freedoms but a lot of them openly supported & participated in the coup and even accused him of being a cannibal that liked to eat children. He would take questions & respond to people directly through Twitter to bypass the filter of the corporate media. Contrasted that with what a media organization would face for supporting an overthrow attempt by foreign interests. Much less being among those foreign interests that backed the overthrow of Chavez.

He wasn't perfect but increased more freedoms than took away & clearly his intentions were in the right place. Venezuela also sits on top of A LOT of oil so they want a "trickle down" type in charge though he was more of the Keynesian type more than a capitalist or a socialist. The US are very public allies with the Saudi Arabian monarchy but a lot of people in the US as well as DU have a lot of knee-jerk hatred when it comes to Chavez. I just don't see him as that oppressive dictator that he is often portrayed as.

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

93. Move along....