Kentucky man declared brain dead wakes up during organ harvesting

[erronis]

Source: The Guardian

A man who had gone into cardiac arrest and been declared brain dead woke up as surgeons in his home state of Kentucky were in the middle of harvesting his organs for donation, his family has told media outlets.

As reported Thursday by both National Public Radio and the Kentucky news station WKYT, the case of Anthony Thomas “TJ” Hoover II is under investigation by state and federal government officials. Officials within the US’s organ-procurement system insist there are safeguards in place to prevent such episodes, though his family told the outlets their experience highlights a need for at least some reform.

Hoover’s sister, Donna Rhorer, recounted how Hoover was taken to Baptist health hospital in Richmond, Kentucky, in October 2021 because of a drug overdose. Doctors soon told Rhorer and her relatives that Hoover lacked any reflexes or brain activity, and they ultimately decided to remove him from life support, as WKYT noted.

The staff at Baptist then reportedly told Rhorer and her family that Hoover had given permission for his organs to be donated in the event of his death. To honor his wishes, the hospital tested which of his organs would be viable for donation, and the facility even had a ceremony honoring him. Rhorer said she noticed Hoover’s eyes open up and seemingly track his loved one’s movements, according to WKYT. “We were told it was just reflexes – just a normal thing,” she said to the outlet.



Read more: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/oct/18/kentucky-man-wakes-up-organ-harvesting

---

It's the old (Not) for profit healthcare system at work again.

Pretty soon vans will be roaming the streets looking for quality organs.

[GreenWave]

1. Mitch?

[tornado34jh]

2. Brain death is not something you can just declare. It has to be very rigorous

One of the criteria for brain death is that drug overdoses must be excluded, because they may mimic brain death, especially drugs that affect the central nervous system. There are a lot of mimics for brain death, and it has to irreversible.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

6. How can they tell when Trumpers are involved?

[tornado34jh]

13. Well, that's why politicians should not be doctors

They don't know how the human body works.

[AdamGG]

62. The gold standard for brain death in Trump supporters

is when they are no longer able to spout conspiracy theories.

[LisaL]

17. Then they clearly didn't follow the rules, because he had a drug overdose.

NT

[tornado34jh]

38. Drug intoxication/overdose is one of the excluding criteria

I'm not a doctor, but there are a couple of tests to check, and one of which is cerebral angiography. It will tell you if the brain is receiving blood or not, or sometimes they use a radionucleotide scan. EEG can sometimes confirm it, but again, you have to make sure that certain things such as hypothermia, barbiturate overdose aren't causing it.

[LisaL]

66. If drug intoxication is the excluding criteria, this guy should have been excluded from the start, because

he ended up in this hospital because of drug overdose. But the hospital seemed determined to remove his organs, despite him pretty obviously being not dead.

[tornado34jh]

68. The other thing is, usually you have to get neurological examination by at least two independent physicians

Either way, protocol was not followed, and this man avoided having his organs donated/harvested.

[LisaL]

70. Nearly avoided having his organs harvested.

A surgeon showed up and refused to remove his organs because the patient was obviously not dead. Why the hospital set him up for organ removal when he obviously was not dead is beyond my understanding.

[tornado34jh]

71. Who knows? But clearly something went wrong

If I am the family of this man, I would want to know who made the call and why they assumed he was dead. To me, I think they were being hasty.

[Redleg]

78. LOL. I was thinking Matt Bevin, our former governor

[PJMcK]

3. Watch the movie "Coma"

It's about this exact thing, that is, organ harvesting. The novel by Robin Cook, is better than the very good film.

Another take on organ harvesting Is the Michael Bey thriller, The Island.

What a world we're living through.

[Jack Valentino]

9. And another take on organ harvesting----- !

[PJMcK]

16. Good choice!

My examples were of the depressing side of cloning. Monty Python is always hysterical and spot on!

Enjoy your weekend.

[erronis]

20. Memories from 50 years ago - still randomly firing.

Thanks for that wake up!

[markodochartaigh]

30. The Galaxy Song is

one of my favorites.

[Coexist]

4. Wow

[LudwigPastorius]

5. Holy Fucking Shit

That's OK.

I didn't need to sleep tonight.

[C0RI0LANUS]

7. Hope the US doesn't go like China.

Falon Gong followers, Uighurs, Tibetans, and political prisoners disappear in the massive Chinese gulag.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

8. I've been reading about this sort of thing and it's

why I am no longer an organ donor.

Although since I'm already 77, there's probably not much of me to be used.

[Akakoji]

10. Is the man dead?

Now? And this is a common practice - not just in China.

[LisaL]

15. No, he is very much alive, three years later.

NT

[maxsolomon]

11. Article doesn't really say whether he was conscious or still brain dead.

Last edited Fri Oct 18, 2024, 05:11 PM - Edit history (1)

Only "he woke up", "he was thrashing around", "crying visibly", "...made attempts to say: ‘Hey, I’m here'."

Any of that could mean he regained consciousness, or not. Did he literally try to talk?

The timeline is confusing, too. He was sent home AFTER the procedure was halted?

[LisaL]

14. That was three years ago. He is still alive, and there are recent photos of him, where he is very much alive.

NT

[maxsolomon]

19. Alive, still brain dead? Alive, awake and conscious?

I see now the article says she was told to take him home after the procedure was aborted.

I didn't see the recent photos in the article.

[LisaL]

21. Alive, awake and conscious.

This article has a recent photo of him dancing.
https://www.npr.org/sections/shots-health-news/2024/10/16/nx-s1-5113976/organ-transplantion-mistake-brain-dead-surgery-still-alive

[maxsolomon]

31. Wow.

Glad they stopped the procedure!

[electric_blue68]

40. Thank goodness

[Old Okie]

74. 3 Years

Then why is this posted like it was recent; should be a zombie post.

[maxsolomon]

76. just realized that myself.

maybe because they hospital is now facing consequences?

very tenuously LBN.

[CincyDem]

12. "Died of an overdose" and "organ donor" don't seem to go together ???

I get that cardiac arrest was the clinical cause of death but it was precipitated by an OD I’m surprised he’d be a viable donor for anything

[LisaL]

22. He wasn't dead. He is still alive 3 years later.

Seems like they were going to harvest organs from a person who wasn't actually dead.

[Quanto Magnus]

18. This reminds me of the Monty Python sketch

about live organ donations....

Unfortunately, this case is not funny...

[mdbl]

39. Me too

and the body bank on Max Headroom if you ever saw that.

[Farmer-Rick]

23. That's terrible

From the link: "Rhorer (the sister) said she noticed Hoover’s (the patient) eyes open up and seemingly track his loved one’s movements, according to WKYT. “We were told it was just reflexes – just a normal thing,” she said to the outlet.

“Who are we to question the medical system?”"

If my loved one was tracking people with their eyes, it would be a cold day in hell before I let anyone declare him dead. I don't care how many degrees you have. That person is aware and alive.

[LisaL]

26. I am not sure what the deal is here. This guy was showing many signs of not being dead.

When the surgeon showed up for organ removal, he refused to remove his organs, because the guy obviously wasn't dead. Why did the hospital declared him dead and tried to get his organs removed is beyond my understanding. This sounds like it should be a criminal case.

[Farmer-Rick]

67. Exactly right

Sounds like someone wanted those organs desperately.

[Elessar Zappa]

58. Eyes can be open and tracking

while the person has no awareness whatsoever. I’ve seen it plenty of times when I worked in nursing homes. The person is usually in a persistent vegetative state with their reflexes intact but no higher level function.

[tornado34jh]

60. There is something called locked-in syndrome

It's where a person is aware but is completely paralyzed. It often occurs with brainstem stroke. The person is conscious and awake, but can't speak and is tetraplegic. However, the patient is not brain dead because the higher functioning parts of the brain are often the respiratory centers of the medulla are often spared.

[Elessar Zappa]

61. I realize that locked in syndrome exists.

What I’m talking about is completely different though.

[tornado34jh]

63. True, but again, a lot of mimics, which is why it has to be so rigorous to be sure that person is brain dead

Obviously if the whole brainstem is dead, even if the cerebrum is intact, they will never recover. However, as we have seen with Jahi McMath and Terri Schiavo, there is always a bioethical issue and all that. However, in this case, I think someone did not check all the boxes to be sure this person is actually brain dead.

[Iggo]

24. Better late than never!

[Joinfortmill]

25. That's why I won't do it.

[C Moon]

27. Creepy!

[Blue Owl]

28. This happens one out of how many million times?

What a freaky thing…..

[LisaL]

29. How would we know?

This guy clearly wasn't dead, yet the hospital seemed to determine to proceed with organ removal. When surgeon showed up to remove his organs, he refused to do it, because the guy obviously was not dead.

[dalton99a]

32. Kick

[perdita9]

33. I took my name off the donor list years ago

I don't trust the system and, if I were told I needed a transplant, I wouldn't get one. People get pushed into this treatment and often go bankrupt from the care they require afterwards.

I will accept my death when it comes. That's a personal decision. I understand that other people feel differently.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

34. I recently read "The Undead"

by Dick Teresi.

It covers this issue very well.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

35. Not "yet" dead ...

[dflprincess]

46. When I saw Spamalot I bought the souvenier shirt that says "I'm Not Dead Yet"

I only wear it on my birthday.

[Attilatheblond]

36. Young, strong pal of my brother-in-law in bad accident, had head injury. In hospital for several days in coma

The hospital (big one in Phoenix, known for groundbreaking transplants) was really pressuring his family to 'let him go' and donate all those sweet, strong 24 year old organs....

They were about to give in when his former fiancee came in and talked them down. She had been pre-med and was working for rehabilitation therapy. She got them to listen, she put the kabash on his current fiancee who was all about being the poor almost widow and milking it.

Took three years of serious work, but she brought him around, walking, talking, riding a bike, and finally, back on his beloved surfboard, taking on the Pacific Ocean, again, and loving every moment. Oh, and she took his dog, an enormous Golden retriever the 'grieving' fiancee was gonna surrender to a shelter, with them when she took him into her home to help him heal.

Yes, they got to know each other again, enjoy each other, and remember why they had planned a life together once. Yes, they married after he was over all the physical therapy, speech therapy and resumed a 'normal life'.

Yeah, I was not much older than him when this happened. And I took the 'organ donor' permission off my driver's license after considering all that young man overcame and all the love of the woman who applied her new skills to save him. That the hospital was so eager to write him off and make money inserting his organs into older, worn out bodies was a big red flag for me.

[erronis]

48. What an incredible and moving story. I hope your BIL and you and friends have healed.

Can't imagine the trauma.

[Attilatheblond]

53. Mostly, it was the former fiancee that just flat out refused to give up and knew he was still 'in there'

Oh, they had a little boy a few years later. The big golden lived to be an old dog with a baby to tend. Happy all around.

[Wiz Imp]

37. Makes me think of the Law & Order Season 8 episode "Harvest"

A woman was shot & "killed". But an anomaly in her time of death makes it appear the hospital prepared to harvest her organs before she was officially declared to have died. Turns out the doctor in charge precipitated her death in order to deliver her organs to a hospital where he was hoping to get a job. The doctor gave her morphine so he could harvest her organs before she was "officially" dead. That led to this from ADA Jack McCoy during cross examination of the doctor, delivered at his self righteous angry best:

"That's why you had to pump her full of morphine! So she wouldn't bolt upright, screaming in the operating room while you cut her heart out!"

[dflprincess]

47. I swear there is a "Law and Order" for every situation

it's the new I Ching.

(And I remember the episode you refer to. There was also one where a man was found bleeding on a park bench, his kidney had been cut out & he was dumped in the park. The intrepid detecives tracked down the rich man who had had it done so his daughter could get the kidney.)

[Wiz Imp]

50. Well, Law & Order is up to 504 episodes plus SVU is at 554 episodes

That's a lot of stories they have to come up with even if they repeat some themes. I don't think there has been a single high profile criminal case in the last 30 years which they didn't borrow from for story ideas. Of course they borrow from more obscure type cases as well.

I remember the episode you mention too. It was actually from the very first season and titled "Sonata for Solo Organ"

[Warpy]

41. I can imagine the M&M session that's going to cover this one.

Risk management's bar bill will easily double. This is a nightmare for everybody.

It seems as though something was missed in the process of determining brain death. Even purposeless movement shouldn't have occurred. If there were any random body movements at all on that operating table, someone's head will roll.

This is all over major media in the US over the last 2 days. Most US stories indicate that the surgeons had just started, meaning nothing vital had been removed. The Guardian story was sensationalist and generally terrible.

An incision is a hell of a rude way to wake up a comatose patient. The lawsuit will be a doozy. Having been involved with some of this evaluation of deeply comatose patients, I'm relly wondering what was skipped or unevaluated.

Will Mr. Hoover make a full recovery? Unlikely, his injuries had to be horrendous for him to be considered as a possible donor.

[Klarkashton]

42. How much money does that hospital get from these harvests?

[johnnyfins]

43. Soon:

"Pretty soon vans will be roaming the streets looking for quality organs"

Trump.org(ans)

[BadGimp]

44. What exactly are you guys up to?

[Wonder Why]

45. "Can I have his brain for my experiment since it isn't dead?" :Dr. Frankenstein

[PurgedVoter]

49. With all the

According to a 2020 research report on transplant costs in the United States, the average costs for organ transplants include:

Heart transplant: $1,664,800
Lung transplant: $1,295,900 (double lung) or $929,600 (single lung)
Intestine transplant: $1,240,700
Liver transplant: $878,400
Kidney transplant: $442,500
Pancreas transplant: $408,800
This is from https://www.healthline.com/health/medicare/does-medicare-cover-transplants#transplant-coverage

From what I can glean, without diving terribly deep, even on Medicare you are paying 20% and the expenses of the person donating are not covered. so if we go for the next lowest cost, the kidney transplant is going to cost you personally, over $88,000 and you will have to jump through all the approval hoops that medical providers can invent. The justification for you paying the 20% is simple, they don't want you to use your insurance. They just want you to pay it.
I am not sure what percentage of the population can manage $88,000. Not everyone has a house they can sell, and this is one of the cheaper transplants.

It is very, very kind and forgiving to donate organs if you keep in mind that it will probably go to a millionaire. Our healthcare system is broken. If you compare the cost of US medical expenses to any other developed country, and then consider that the difference in cost is going to multimillionaires, and then consider that one multimillionaire is going to stay alive and another is making a fortune off of your healthcare expenses, donating organs is an amazingly generous act.

[erronis]

52. What a very thoughtful and thought-provoking reply! I hope others see this and I will try to broadcast it.

[Ms. Toad]

59. So much misinformation in your post.

I'm at a conference for my daughter's condition - which will one day require a liver transplant. There are people at this conference who have had as many as 5 transplants, because the autoimmune disease sometimes returns.

While there may be one or two millionaires in this bunch, most are not wealthy. For the most part, by the time they are sick enough to require a transplant they are on disability and on either Medicare or Medicaid. As for Medicare, if you have a supplement, your costs are limited to the terms of the particular supplement - but no more than around $7,000. If I were to need a liver transplant my medical costs would be limited to the deductible (under $300). Anti-rejection costs (under the drug coverage) would be costly - but there are programs to assist in coverage. On regular insurance, medical costs are limited to the out-of-pocket max for the year. The cap for Medicare Advantage plans is a little over $8,000. Annual drug costs on all Medicare plans is capped at $2,000 starting in 2025. Under the ACA , that is capped at $9,000 (combined medical and pharmaceutical). As a practical matter, most are capped far lower - between $3,000 and $4,000 is typical. My daughter makes about $40,000/year and has no savings. So no one who has insurance (ACA, work, Medicare Supplement, or Medicare Advantage) is going to pay 20%.

Wealth plays no direct role in who receives an organ - organ allocation is based solely on geographic location of the organ (and time from donor to recipient) and predicted life expectancy without an organ transplant. For livers, that is the MELD score. I'm not directly familiar with prediction tools for other organs. The indirect role is largely associated with the switch from being disabled (which gives access to Medicare and/or Medicaid) to being not disabled after transplant. Once you have recovered from the transplant, you are no longer legally disabled - and will be dependent on insurance to cover the anti-rejection costs which are life-long.

[PurgedVoter]

64. Thank you for your clarification

That is much more reasonable. A retiree could sell their car and almost afford that. A reverse morgage on their home would handle it easily. $8000 is chump change to the average retiree and if they didn't charge that, doctors would just be pestered by clients. Anyone who retired without being able to pony up $8000 on a simi-regular basis, clearly didn't plan for the future.

It is great to know that it is affordable by the middle class. Retired farm workers, and those who never made it into middle or upper management are still going to have to decide if they want to die so their spouse can still afford bills. $8000 with interest doesn't leave a lot for plumbing repair when you are on a fixed income and the cost of a meal has doubled in the last few years.

I am not in poverty, I was not in the lowest income tax bracket either. I have teachers retirement, and I think such expenses would come close to breaking my finances. If anything else came up it would. If I also had my social security benefits, then maybe I could manage such a thing. As it is, I just have to pray my wife and I stay healthy. Right now I could possibly afford such a thing, but in a few years, after inflation, I doubt I will be able to. When we get sick, it is a strong debate over seeing a doctor. When we have a tooth problem we have to schedule it to match with our monthly checks.

But there are a lot of others who made a lot less. The ladies in the front office of the school, the library aids, and a lot of the workers that made the schools functional didn't make anything near what I made. For them, retirement is going to be rough even before medical expenses get bad.

Honestly, my hope is that our nations medical system has been overhauled and improved and social security benefits has been seriously increased before your daughter retires after a $40,000 dollar a year income. Unless her raises become much larger than inflation, retirement may be a bit rough. $40K in the sixties would have been great. These days rent can easily take a third of that and a burger that cost $3.50 before Trump, may cost you $10 now.

[rubbersole]

51. If you're ever sitting around and thinking "I'm having a really bad day"....

..not really.

[mjvpi]

54. Hummm, this might explain the number of Trump voters

[Godot51]

55. So...

... there is still hope for drumpf?

[notroot]

56. I hate it when that happens.

[Xipe Totec]

57. At least he woke up surrounded by his brain dead kin. nt

[ancianita]

65. Without his prior written consent? Was it 'by default' on his KY drivers license?

I've read that that's usually the legal justification used by organ harvesters.

[Jacson6]

69. Just as the surgeon removes the patient's heart...

The patient sits up and asks."What the hell are you doing with my heart in your hand?"

[Maeve]

72. Being sure of death isn't always easy

This case is over the top, but...I have a collection of stories where people were declared dead, only to wake in the morgue, funeral home or their own wake. Most die for real within days, but some live full lives.
Had a woman tell me of her mother who, as a child, was declared dead and laid out in a traditional wake. The second night, she woke. And there are tales of wakes that went longer than 3 days because the "corpse" wasn't decaying (not dead yet)

[BComplex]

73. Well. That's unethical as hell.

WTF??? Are un-wealthy people all this disposable to our health system? This does NOT make a good commercial for donating organs!

[ninjanurse]

75. Libertarian

I was working in health insurance when I got a call from a woman whose son was sick. He had donated a kidney and now was having serious problems. I gave her what advice I could, but when I researched care for donors I found they were pretty much on their own. I thought of this when the NYT ran an editorial from a Libertarian who argued that it should be legal to sell organs, like kidneys. I see more of this normalization as Trump works to make everything transactional.

[PedroXimenez]

77. anyone read a certain book?

that was made into a certain movie? With some attractive English actors?

(not saying the name because it would be a bit of a spoiler)