OU SAE to sue university, possibly President Boren

[Spider_Mann]

Source: KFOR Channel 4

NORMAN, Okla. — The local chapter of Sigma Alpha Epsilon is planning to pursue legal action against the University of Oklahoma, and possibly OU President David Boren.

The group has hired high-profile attorney, Stephen Jones to represent them.

Jones told NewsChannel 4 the group is outraged over President Boren shutting down the fraternity house and branding all SAE members as racists and bigots.

Jones says the two students who were expelled because of the incident have apologized sincerely for their remarks, and now the incident is being exploited.

Read more: http://kfor.com/2015/03/12/ou-sae-to-sue-ou-possibly-president-boren/

[Tripper11]

1. By all means.....

....lets get this all out in the open.

Like this was the only time something like this has ever happened!

[jtuck004]

2. Another SAE fraternity chapter accused of racist comments -- this time in Seattle

...
(CNN)Another chapter of the Sigma Alpha Epsilon fraternity is under fire for alleged racial slurs -- this time in Seattle.

University of Washington students are accusing fraternity members of offensive comments during a protest to raise awareness about racism last month.

"People were called monkeys and apes by members of SAE," said Maggie Negussie, president of the university's Black Student Union....

Here.

And over in one of the most Democratic of states the sons and daughters making themselves known...

[CreekDog]

26. It's a Southern Fraternity

even if there's a chapter in Seattle, one can't escape it's racist origins as a fraternity.

[jtuck004]

60. Full of racists from Washington State. The origin might be South, but the point of view

is universal.

[daleanime]

3. If they had "sincere" regret.....

they would shut up, roll their sleeves up and get to work changing themselves.

[irisblue]

4. go for it putz

this will be soooo interesting

[7962]

5. Just go away before you make an even BIGGER fool of your self

[LynneSin]

6. I rate that about as smart as Pharrell Williams and Robin Thicke suing the Gaye Family...

because the song that they (Williams & Thicke) wrote was vaguely familiar to one Marvin Gaye had done 40 years ago. (The 'Blurred Lines'/'Got to Give it Up' plagerism lawsuit)

The Gaye Family ended up counter-suing and in the end Willams and Thicke now owe the Gaye Family 7.4 million dollars.

Maybe if those bone-headed pair thought it through they would have left the lawyers at home and worked out a deal.

As for SAE I would suggest the same.

[jberryhill]

30. What sort of deal would you propose be worked out?

[LynneSin]

59. For the song or for the university?

I'm a believer that time and negotiations can heal all wounds.

But for the fraternity to start suing now - it's just too soon and solves nothing. It would be better if the Fraternity would show that they want to change the view people have of them - Actions speak louder than words.

I know watching the Penn State saga unfold, Penn state fans were pushing to try and reinstate the Football program and Paterno's wins almost as soon as the trial was done and it just seemed wrong. But Penn State did get their football team reinstated early because they stopped trying to push the issue and just went out there and played football - try to distance the team from the scandal which in reality the current team and coaching staff had nothing to do with the Jerry Sandusky pedophilia scandal.

If I could advise the fraternity I would tell them to drop the suit and start organzing and show the school that you do not want to always be remembered as the frat with the members who made the racist chants - you want to be remembered as something better then that. Make your fraternity as something better and in a year or 2 I can almost guarentee the school would allow them to return.

[jberryhill]

63. The two students have been expelled

You are saying that you want the two students who have been expelled from the university to hang around campus and do what, exactly?

They are not allowed to be there. Because they have been expelled from one university, their chances of enrolling in another are approximately nil. Their lives end here.

What is it that they are going to make into "something better"?

[hollysmom]

73. surely that can't be true - what is the college all the racist politician visit?

they would take them there.

Look they have money =- colleges will take them. they are hard up for money now. Lots of kids have been kicked outof school, it is not the worst thing to happen to them - for someone to lynch them that wold pretty much mean their lives would be over.

eta - sorry, having a bad arthritis day, my typing ois off, had to correct typos.

[jberryhill]

75. Granted, the point however being...

...there is no agreement to be reached.

[CincyDem]

7. Where's the popcorn.

Do you think CNN will go to 24 hour coverage of the trial a la OJ ?

Can't wait can't wait can't wait.

I can already hear their music bed thumpin' in my head.

"Never gonna be, never gonna be, never gonna be be be..."

Yeah. Wolf will be rocking.

[Chipper Chat]

22. Only if there is a missing plane involved.

[Dan]

74. Especially after they

name the names all of the defendants in this trial -

[blackspade]

8. Oh, please.

The few bad apples defense?

Lame.

[AllyCat]

9. Poor little rich bigots don't like being told they are bigots

Whhhhhaaaaaaa!

[groundloop]

11. Plus I'd bet that the university has a legal right to do what it did

I'm just guessing, but based on my time as a fraternity member I believe there are probably legally binding agreements giving the university the right to shutter the fraternity in case it breaks certain rules. I can't imagine that the university took action without first making sure they had a legal/contractual right to do so.

[Spider_Mann]

15. What is the relevant rule

In this case, from the Code of Conduct? Only by reading that paragraph could we determine whether the racist video meets the criteria.

[steve2470]

21. The University of Oklahoma Student Rights and Responsibilities Code 2014-2015

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026344469

[Maeve]

27. Also, since the national frat dropped the local frat

The locals probably have no right to stay--
"Each fraternity or sorority must be recognized by its respective (inter)national organization."

http://www.ou.edu/content/dam/studentlife/documents/FSSL%20Minimum%20Expectations%20Covenant%20Fall%202014.pdf (page 9)

[steve2470]

28. good point nt

[groundloop]

39. ^^^ BINGO ^^^

[Spider_Mann]

40. That's where things get complicated

Unwelcome conduct that is sufficiently severe and pervasive that it alters the
conditions of education or employment and creates an environment that a reasonable person would
find intimidating, harassing or humiliating. These circumstances could include the frequency of the
conduct, its severity, and whether it is threatening or humiliating. This includes physically abusing
a person or holding a person against his or her will. Simple teasing, offhanded comments and
isolated incidents (unless extremely serious) will not amount to abusive conduct..

Was the racism pervasive or isolated?

[steve2470]

42. I think a good case can be made that it was pervasive

Jones just wants the spotlight and a big paycheck. The kids and their parents want ... whatever. If they want to forever be lumped in with the KKK and neo-Nazis a la Skokie 1978, they are doing it correctly. If I was the parent of one of these guys, I'd say forget it, next quiet option.

[Chan790]

50. Actually it's moot.

It doesn't matter even if they did nothing at all...once their national organization dropped them, the university was within their rights to terminate their association with the school based only on their disaffiliation from their national organization. It's likely that not only will ΣAE national back OU on this...it's almost a certainty that the National Interfraternity Council will do so.

Former member of the board of directors of my own college fraternity's national organization...not my first rodeo dealing with expulsion of a rogue chapter along with its membership.

[Spider_Mann]

65. It is your first rodeo

Dealing with this type of case. Can you name the litigation that you've been involved with which you count as past rodeos? Then I'll see how similar the cases are to this.

[Chan790]

78. All four times where I was involved where we expelled members and dechartered a chapter...

resulting in a lawsuit, including one similar to this except it did not get this kind of media attention, it's been tossed for lack of standing. (I'm not telling which cases we were party to as I am not authorized to speak on behalf of the organization, which means I cannot identify the organization in public fora...only speak in the abstract.)

The court cannot address the civil rights issue if the national pulls the charter because the court has no jurisdiction to compel the national organization to reinstate the chapter's charter meaning there is no remedy through litigation and without remedy there is no legal standing; further, one has no free-speech right against disciplinary action by non-government entities such as private organizations, meaning the court has no jurisdiction. As soon as Sigma Alpha Epsilon pulled their charter, the members of the chapter had nothing to stand on. The school is within its rights to kick them off campus subsequent to the de-chartering regardless of the cause of the de-chartering because that is the compact the chapter agreed to in order to be allowed to colonize OU in the first place. OU's iron-clad argument will be "We didn't violate their free-speech rights, we threw them off campus for losing their charter in accordance with a school policy they agreed and signed to as recently as August 2014. SAE revoked their charter for making racist comments and has that authority under the law and their own rights of free association."

We're a private organization, as is any Greek organization--we have a legal right of extending, revoking or not-extending membership to whomever we'd like for nearly any cause.

Their lawyer is smart though...he's going to get paid a lot of money for what will be dismissed pretty much as soon as he sets foot in a courtroom. Probably the easiest and best-paid 5 minutes of his life.

[geek tragedy]

29. racial discrimination is most certainly against the rules of every public

university in the country.

one would have to be a complete idiot to be unaware of this.

[AllyCat]

61. The fraternities on my campus were shut down over drugs and alcohol

Surely this is worse. I think OU will win this.

[marble falls]

10. Further in the article, Jones says that the two expelled merely "lacked judgment in a social...

setting, but they should not be tarred and feathered as racists." Social setting like mobs, KKK teas, lynchings? That's not an extenuating circumstance. Acting racist in a racist setting without self control should be an established reason for expelling someone.

What if it were a rape? Would they have lacked judgement or been rapists?

[Spider_Mann]

14. Rape is a crime n/t

[madokie]

12. Boren is a good man, smart man

he'll hand them their ass is what will happen with this

[mahatmakanejeeves]

13. Link to the student newspaper:

Last edited Fri Mar 13, 2015, 12:20 PM - Edit history (1)

OU's Sigma Alpha Epsilon to sue university

[Paladin]

16. Daddys' Money, incoming.

This will be entertaining.

[FLPanhandle]

17. Anyone know what legal chances they have?

I assume if they inked a high profile lawyer, there must be some angle where they have a case?

Chances of victory?

[Spider_Mann]

19. Washington Post, March 11, 2015

"Why expelled Oklahoma frat boys would have an ‘excellent chance’ in court"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/03/11/expelled-oklahoma-students-have-an-excellent-chance-of-succeeding-if-they-sue/

[Tommy_Carcetti]

23. Did you lose your log in information in another small fire, per chance? nt

[Spider_Mann]

44. The WaPo article didn't please you much

Did it?

[Tommy_Carcetti]

51. I would suggest putting your DU password in one of these next time.

[Spider_Mann]

66. I suggest you stop disliking legal experts

They know their thing. Embrace expertise.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

68. There can be experts on both sides.

That's why they have cases and trials.

Come now, and let us reason together....

[Tommy_Carcetti]

70. So you're telling me it was something like this.

Kitchen fires are known to destroy DU login information, after all.

[Blue_Tires]

24. Optimistic, to say the least...

Just because some other frat won a case 23 goddamn years ago it doesn't mean there's a "excellent chance"...

University environments and their sensitivity on racial matters are much different these days

[Spider_Mann]

41. Has any legal expert argue that the 23 year difference will be a factor?

Or is this simply the hypothesis of Blue_Tires?

[Blue_Tires]

62. I'm sorry; do you work at a state university?

[Chan790]

55. The Sigma Chi precedent won't apply. The circumstances are not the same.

The difference is in the nationals. ΣX stood behind their GMU chapter; ΣAE dechartered their OU chapter.

OU only need cite that their policy does not allow fraternities that do not have a national organization's charter and the former OU ΣAE chapter loses standing which mean their lawsuit is dismissed. They can't be reinstated without a national charter. ΣAE cannot be compelled to re-charter them. As an NIC member, the former ΣAE brothers cannot join another NIC organization, nor may any other NIC organization charter the suspended chapter. The legal onus to comply with University of Oklahoma Fraternity and Sorority Student Life Minimum Expectations Covenant (forthwith referred to as the MEC) lies with the chapter...and they possess no means to do so if reinstated.

OU's defense becomes "it doesn't matter if we incidentally violated their civil rights as our suspension is co-enforced with their dechartering by ΣAE nationals which has no obligation of association...no court has the authority to grant them remedy under the law as no court has the authority to supersede a private organization's right to determine who is a member in good standing or the conditions of such, nor to force ΣAE to recognize their previous charter. As such, they cannot meet the terms of the MEC of which they are a signatory party."

Contract law is a cruel crux.

Edit: They might get money but it won't be much. The court has no other remedy.

[Botany]

18. Good Idea! Expose all the other SAE branches that sing the same song like @ the U of Texas

http://touch.latimes.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-83030474/

[steve2470]

20. They may be on sound legal grounds but....

Last edited Fri Mar 13, 2015, 11:04 AM - Edit history (1)

the optics suck. If they were smart, they would very quietly form a new fraternity or just join another one or *gasp* just be regular students!

SAE = We're Racists but Hey, It's Free Speech and It's Legal, Damnit!

ETA: To clarify, I personally don't think they have sound legal grounds, but I'm not a judge. Legal grounds are what the legislature and a judge or judges say it is. That's why I used the word "may".

[geek tragedy]

31. the frat has zero legal recourse. their charter was canceled by the national

frat. plus they're on tape bragging about how they engage in illegal racial discrimination

[steve2470]

34. yea I forgot about the national frat cancellation

I think Jones has an uphill battle with this one. Hmmmm, documented racial discrimination versus "their rights". I think the OU Code of Conduct speaks to this. I think the University has a good argument for preserving an orderly and peaceful academic atmosphere. I'm sure they are going to get all kinds of white nationalist money to help.

[Chan790]

58. They can't even do most of those things.

"If they were smart, they would very quietly form a new fraternity or just join another one."

They can't. ΣAE is a member of the National Interfraternity Council...the organization of Greek-letter fraternity organizations. No NIC member is allowed to accept as a member any chapter or brother previously inducted of another NIC member organization. ΣAE would have to release them from their previous membership...and that's not happening. OU does not recognize local fraternities, that is, fraternities without a national organization backing them.

They're finished in Greek life.

[Blue_Tires]

25. Figures one of the low-count acounts would rush to post this story...

[Spider_Mann]

43. Would any long-post person post this story even in a non-rushed way?

Would such people ever post this story?

[Jackpine Radical]

56. The answer is obviously "Yes," since it's already been posted.

A funny thing about DU in contrast to certain other sites--we don't censor reality here. You apparently have no idea what you have tumbled into. I hope you survive long enough to find out.

[Spider_Mann]

67. So there goes the only-newbies-rush-it argument

You swore your comment would bolster the argument in question, but you destroyed it. Thanks!

[Jackpine Radical]

69. I had nothing to do with that argument.

I swore nothing.

You asked whether a long-time poster would post this story at all, with the implication that it would not be posted. I pointed out that it had already been posted.

Really, all those chronic anger hormones are not at all good for your cardiovascular system, not to mention what they do to your ability to track sub-threads.

[Blue_Tires]

64. I'm just noticing certain patterns, that's all...

[heaven05]

48. +1000

[SoapBox]

32. Well WTF!

...disgraceful.

[One_Life_To_Give]

33. Suing because we are not ashamed to admit we are Racist Pigs

Anybody with an ounce of respect for minorities would have been glad to get rid of these racist punks. Bringing such shame upon their organization. But when you are proud of it well that is a whole nother story. And clearly these folks are proud of their brothers sentiments, just disappointed they were caught.

[tridim]

35. "Healing", suing... Same thing apparently.

Racist assholes are racist. Case closed.

[olegramps]

36. I guess the kids rich parents will gladly pay the bill to exonerate their racist kids.

What is going to be their defense? That their little darlings are only following time honored Southern sympathies that Blacks are inferior sub-humans. I am only waiting for the Tea Baggers to rush to their defense with claims of violation of the Constitutional rights of free speech and of course that it is all instigated by Obama. It amazes me that our Black citizens remain living anywhere in the South when they have to put up with this crap on a daily basis.

[riderinthestorm]

37. Someone taught those boys that song. A lawsuits going to expose them

and brand that fraternity even more indelibly as deep seated institutionalized racists.

This won't end well for them, even if by some miracle, they "win".

[adigal]

38. Of course, they are....they have every right to be racist jerks

But they forget that they don't have a right to a fraternity nor do they have a right to a university education.

I think they will lose, as their actions reflected poorly on their university.

And I guess they aren't that sorry, are they???

[heaven05]

45. "sincerely", isn't that precious

Jones is looking for business and higher profile. Obvious smarmishness......

[steve2470]

52. [phone] nt

[Dr. Strange]

54. They seem sincerely sorry...

that they got caught.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

71. Nice signature line, buddy.

Canadian rap sucks!

[Dr. Strange]

72. Alerting!

Canadian rap (or CRap for short) does, in fact, NOT suck.

[Spider_Mann]

46. NYT, on liberal and conservative scholars

"Official punishment for speech could be legal if the students’ chant constituted a direct threat, leading a reasonable person to fear for his or her safety, or if it seemed likely to provoke an immediate violent response, according to Mr. Chemerinsky and several other legal scholars, liberal and conservative alike.

But in this case, these experts said, there is no evidence of any direct threat or provocation, and as a publicly financed institution, the university is subject to constitutional boundaries."

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/12/us/expulsion-of-two-oklahoma-students-leads-to-free-speech-debate.html

[lancer78]

77. Irrelevant

The national SAE has revoked the local SAE charter. The University no longer has any legal obligation to continue to have them on campus.

[bpj62]

47. Mary Fallin

The Governor of Oklahoma is the wild card here. I wonder how much pressure her administration is privately putting on Boren to drop this matter. The lawsuit will cost the state money and she may not want that to pay out that money.

[geek tragedy]

81. There will be no lawsuit as they have no legal claim. nt

[mahatmakanejeeves]

49. Welcome to DU.

Last edited Mon Mar 16, 2015, 12:56 PM - Edit history (2)

You should have been here during the Duke lacrosse meltdown.

Uh-oh:

More on Duke Lacrosse Rape Case - Democratic Underground

Third Duke lacrosse player indicted

Yes, that video is ... I'm trying to think of a word, but nothing seems adequate. I was that age once, but not quite that stupid. The only thing that saved me from worldwide shame is that there was no YouTube at the time.

That aside, there's a rush to judgment going on here. I am reminded of the Duke lacrosse incident of 2006. Clearly the song is over the line, but are they to be expelled for their words, an act that strikes me as a clear violation of their First Amendment rights?

Even people who say odious things have rights.

Finally, I have some advice for DUers who are upset by what I say. I remind those of you who have not already done so that to put me on "ignore," just click on the icon titled "Ignore this member." I'll get over it.

[jwirr]

53. I just looked to see if the University of Iowa still had their SAE open. Found and article saying

they had closed it down but did not show a date. Closed because of hazing. Any UI students here who can answer this?

[mahatmakanejeeves]

57. For those of you who can't recall who Stephen Jones is:

Stephen Jones, attorney

Stephen Jones, (born July 1, 1940), is an attorney and Republican activist from Enid, Oklahoma. He is best known for serving as Timothy McVeigh's lead defense lawyer during McVeigh's trial on 11 counts regarding his actions in the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing.

So how much was he paid for that work?

Who's Paying Timothy McVeigh's Lawyers?

June 7 2001 3:18 PM

Attorneys for convicted mass murderer and Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh are appealing for a delay in their client's imminent execution because of documents recently released to them by the FBI. Who is paying the lawyers for their work?

American taxpayers. The federal judges who oversaw the case against McVeigh, first in Oklahoma, then in Denver when the trial was set there, appointed the attorneys both for his defense and appeal. Federal death penalty law requires that a defendant who is unable to pay for counsel be represented by experienced court-appointed attorneys. While there is a professional federal public defender service, this can be supplemented, as it was in McVeigh's case, by attorneys in private practice who can make themselves available for such appointment. Lawyers representing clients in federal death penalty cases can be paid up to $125 an hour and can also bill the government for research and other expenses connected to the case. U.S. District Court Judge Richard Matsch, who presided over McVeigh's trial and just turned down his appeal for a stay of execution, sealed the billing records during the trial so prosecutors wouldn't be tipped off to the leads the defense was following. But Matsch, who had to approve any expense over $300, has now ordered that the cost of the defense be made publicly available.

Former McVeigh defense attorney Stephen Jones has already done his part toward that end. Jones, who traveled at government expense to Israel and Great Britain to confer with bomb experts and the Philippines to track down conspiracy theories, says that McVeigh's defense cost more than $15 million. The government spent almost $83 million for the cases against McVeigh and Terry Nichols, who was convicted in a separate trial. These figures do not include the costs of the current appeals.

Next question?

Explainer thanks James R. Manspeaker of the U.S. District Court, District of Colorado.

I don't think he was in it for the money.

[oldandhappy]

76. Of course they will sue,

it is the American way!!

[Maeve]

79. UPDATE--no lawsuit planned

Source: AP-Excite

By SEAN MURPHY

OKLAHOMA CITY (AP) — The actions of some fraternity members at the University of Oklahoma caught engaging in a racist chant are inexcusable, but student members still have due process rights that must be protected, an attorney hired to represent the local chapter said Friday.

Stephen Jones, who gained national prominence as the attorney for convicted Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh, said members of the Sigma Alpha Epsilon fraternity and their parents also are concerned about the students' safety after some received death threats and were physically and verbally assaulted.

Jones said he has not been retained to initiate any litigation, but to ensure that the due process rights of members are protected from actions by the university and national chapter. He said there also are some legal questions about the fraternity house that OU President David Boren ordered closed after the release of the video, which showed some members engaging in a racist chant that referenced lynching and said African-Americans would never be allowed to become members.

http://apnews.excite.com/article/20150313/us-oklahoma-fraternity-racist-video-dd618ac7e1.html

[Vinca]

80. They would be wise to crawl under a rock for a few years instead.

A trial would keep the story going and everyone knows this probably isn't the only video.

[tblue37]

82. You'd think they'd want to just keep their heads down and not call attention to themselves

for a while, but noooooo.