Greece wants $236 billion in German World War II reparations

[Karmadillo]

http://www.smh.com.au/world/greece-wants-236-billion-in-german-world-war-ii-reparations-20150209-139c1z.html

Athens: Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras says the country has a "moral obligation" to claim reparations from Germany for the damages wrought by the Nazis during World War II.

Greece had "a moral obligation to our people, to history, to all European peoples who fought and gave their blood against Nazism," he said in a key address to parliament.

Berlin has already sounded a firm "no" to requests for reparations nearly 70 years after the end of the war, but Mr Tsipras and his radical left party have vowed to tackle the issue. The issue risks aggravating already strained ties between Athens and Berlin, as Mr Tsipras bids to reverse austerity measures imposed by its international creditors.

"Our historical obligation is to claim the occupation loan and reparations," the new prime minister said, referring to Germany's four-year occupation of Greece and a war-time loan which the Third Reich forced the Greek central bank to give it, and which ruined the country financially.

more...

[Nuclear Unicorn]

1. Laying the groundwork for a default methinks.

It sounds good in the newspaper but it won't save Greece, though. Greece'll end up just like Venezuela -- an international pariah no one wants to do business with lest their assets are seized and nationalized and incompetence will reign because such schemes require political reliability more than administrative acumen.

People can flame me all they want yelling about the fundamental unfairness of it all and the evils of economic exploitation but that won't change the outcome if Tsipras engineers a write-off on this pretext.

GK: Give me money!

EU: Don't you have any money?

GK: No.

EU: Do you have a gun?

GK: No.

EU: Then you don't have any money either.

A scene from the upcoming comedy-drama, My Big Fat Greek Bankruptcy That Will Leave Me Destitute and Vulnerable to the Very Same Oligarchs I Claim to be Resisting Because I Can't Pull Head Out of My Ideological Hindquarters Long Enough to Effectively Govern a Country.

Okay, admittedly, it's a working title.

[freshwest]

37. Good title. Not sure that Greece is broke. W/O debt, they claim a surplus.

Disclaimer:

Not an economist.

Not good at math.

Not European.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

43. Well, you don't really need to be an economist to see what would happen.

If someone defaults on hundreds of billions of dollars in debt they aren't getting new loans any time soon after that.

The next question then becomes: Are they capable of self-sufficiency? From what I've read Greece doesn't have any domestic industries to speak of.

No income, no credit? Bad juju.

[freshwest]

46. They behave as if they are self-sufficient though. I suggest it's their reluctance to fight with...

whatever version of Koch types they've had going on there for some time.

But they shouldn't be let off the hook if they took the money at fair terms. Because allegedly (as I said, not European) that money came from the pockets of the Germans, et al, in the EU who work and pay in high taxes, and weren't part of the Third Reich nor did they benefit from it.

AFAIK, the allegation that 'debt is a scam' is based on the idea the Allies didn't have billions of dollars of debt from WW2. That's just wishful thinking, we're still paying for the damn thing. We nearly lost the war and as I've stated before after watching Ken Burns' Roosevelt series and reading up on it, FDR had to go to the money men and the oligarchs he called out with the much vaunted 'I welcome their hatred' quote. He saw that the USA was in danger of losing to Germany, and had to 'beg' them for help. They created the industrial production line that literally pulverized the Third Reich as they mobilized under FDR's leadership. Some anarchists say it wouldn't matter who won the war. I beg to differ.

IMO, there's scant difference in the utopia that Hitler thought he was creating and what ISIS is proposing. It was a utopian vision that met Ayn Rand's standards, with the Supermen ruling over disposable humanity and ISIS is the same animal as they seek to build their empire.

Because imperialism and empire don't have to be under the control of classical aristocrats as some idealogues would have us believe. Nor is it the vision of only the West. The meme that is anti-Western and anti-American is Exceptionalism rearing its ugly head. The world knew how to Empire, long before the British Empire was a gleam in some bloodline patriarch's eye.

It's the effect, not the label. What we see paraded as being the socialist label has no magic with me now, and I am a life long social democrat and think capitalism is a wasteful, immoral system. Yet in more than one case, we see the ones who say they are liberators are just scamming the people by telling them what they want to hear with words and stealing from them behind their backs like Putin. It is the Westerners who are most likely to fall for this, believing Communism was a change for people. It just transferred the wealth into other hands, although the dream persists that it really is the way to Equality. It was built on blood like every other empire was.

That was veering far off topic and not well expressed. However, the Greek 'moral' argument may hold weight within a world paradigm where those who lost wealth to empires like the Third Reich, are demanding they be repaid.

What I don't get is why, after all the talk, they are even in the EU. I fear the Greeks have bought into something that still isn't going to help, but is the same thing, under a new name.

All that being said, I don't think nations, any nation, lend to others out of altruism unless there are layers of that in play to keep from having another war. I think the USA and West has attempted to bribe its way out of having another WW2, or WW3. It may be that war is more the natural state than not.

These loans were not gifts. The nations that caterwauled about the Iraq War but lent money to the USA for it were expecting something in return. China is also getting ahead in different regions, none of their 'aid' is done out of love. And that is no slam on them, as they take from their own people to buy influence with other nations and expect a return for it.

I need more coffee or sleep, not sure which.

[pampango]

2. Ukraine may want reparations from Russia one day. Don't hold your breath, guys.

And Russia is still occupying part of Ukraine. I doubt they want to see a "reparations for occupation" precedent set.

Expecting the modern German government to pay for Nazi crimes would be like expecting modern Russia to pay for the crimes of the Tsar.

[Warren Stupidity]

4. You should explain them facts to the Israelis.

Further claims in 2009[edit]
In 2009, Israeli Finance Minister Yuval Steinitz announced that he will demand a further €450 million to €1 billion in reparations from Germany on behalf of some 30,000 Israeli forced labor survivors.[13] As of 2013 no agreement has been reached.[citation needed] Israel has also sought large discounts on the purchase of two German-built MEKO warships.[14] Israel has also received two Dolphin-class submarine for free from Germany, along with substantial discounts on two others, and has two more on order for a total of six as of December 2012.[citation needed]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reparations_Agreement_between_Israel_and_West_Germany

[pampango]

17. That is interesting. I knew about the reparations paid in the 1950's but not the 2009 request.

Maybe Ukraine has hope after all.

[2banon]

18. Interesting information. thanks for posting this.

I love the idea of Greece insisting reparations. It would be just.

[jwirr]

11. How is this different from Germany paying reparations to us? They did.

[pampango]

14. I did not know that. The wiki on German reparations doesn't mention it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_reparations_for_World_War_II

[jwirr]

16. I remember from something in the 60s talking about it and they paid us everything they owed.

[former9thward]

29. What did they owe us?

Our land and valuables were not seized.

[jwirr]

32. Okay I am wrong but not totally. At Potsdam in 1945 it was decided that Germany would pay

reparations to the Allied forces according to the damage that was done. The USA backed this plan but did not take any damages for themselves - they did from Japan but later reversed that request. I am not sure why the Greeks did not get any payment back then.

[jwirr]

45. I was wrong see post 32

[pampango]

47. That's worth a heart. Thanks for the clarification. n/t

[jwirr]

49. Thank you for the heart.

[MattSh]

15. Reparations for what?

80% of current Ukraine territory was given to Ukraine by Russian Czars, Lenin, and Stalin. Khrushchev gave Crimea to Ukraine, but we all know it's not theirs anymore.

[GummyBearz]

19. Russia gave us Alaska

Can they invade that next?

[MattSh]

24. What the hell do they teach in schools these days?

Russia most certainly did not give Alaska to anybody. They sold the territory to the USA.

[GummyBearz]

27. Oh...

But they didn't sell (via one way of payment or another) all that land to Ukraine? Got it... it was a josef stalin tax write off or something? lol

[MattSh]

28. Learn some history before you spout off nonsense.

Ukraine was a part of Russia ever since 1654. They didn't have to get any kind of payment for it because they were transferring territory from one part of Russia to another part of Russia.

[GummyBearz]

30. Logic?

you said "80% of current Ukraine territory was given to Ukraine by Russian Czars, Lenin, and Stalin. Khrushchev gave Crimea to Ukraine, but we all know it's not theirs anymore. "


So... its not Russia's anymore... whether it was sold or donated. Just like Alaska isn't theirs anymore. Russia today has no claim to it today based on the boarders they had in 1654, or any other year. Jesus what do they teach in logic class these days?

Giving land away, then invading it is what the US did to screw over Native Americans. Was it OK for the US to do that? Because that is what is happening to Ukraine based on that map you posted.

[MattSh]

35. That's not the issue being discussed in the OP.

Remember the OP?

I've never argued that Russia has any claim to it. What I did argue is that Ukraine has no claim of reparations against Russia, being that most of the territory that is current called Ukraine was given to them by Russia. Therefore the idea that Ukraine is owed reparations is just plain silly.

You can twist my argument into something else, should it so please you, but I'm not going to play that game.

до свидания

[GummyBearz]

36. The OP

Suggested if a precedent is set of "paying reparations for occupation", AND if Russia occupies current day Ukraine, then Ukraine MAY try to get reparations one day. Seems like a pretty strait forward OP. The fact that Russia once owned Ukraine 400 years ago isn't exactly a great argument for allowing them to invade occupy without penalty.

[Warren Stupidity]

3. Ha! that was unexpected. Sort of a brilliant off-footing move. Now the Germans have to

defend their nazi past while demanding, literally, more blood from the Greeks.

[tk2kewl]

5. there are so many things that this could lead to...

reparations for all sorts of things by all sorts of countries. Think climate change! Make those who caused it pay to fix it

[Nuclear Unicorn]

8. Which is why those appearing before the EU with hat in hand and pockets out-turned

will be laughed back to their home nations. No one if going to set such a precedent if it leaves them vulnerable in the future and those who feel they are due have no means to enforce their will.

[tk2kewl]

9. worth a shot though.

get the conversations started. one can hope.

[former9thward]

33. Germans do not have to defend anything.

Reparations were settled at Potsdam. Greece should have said something then --oh that's right they were too busy getting their asses saved by the British when the communist gorillas were trying to take over.

Germany is not demanding anything. It is Greece that is demanding money. If they don't like the terms go without it. Simple solution.

[Warren Stupidity]

50. Tell the Israelis.

The Germans murdered the shit out of the Greeks, who were pretty much unrepresented anywhere in the immediate post war era.

The Israelis are still actively pursuing reparations from Germans "who do not have to defend anything", and there are still open cases by various individuals who want the shit the nazis took from them or their relatives back.

[Amishman]

56. There is a difference

Israel is asking for reparations on behalf of a pool of specific individuals who personally were harmed by Germany. The money would go to those who were harmed.

To me this is very different than a government asking for a lump of money for its own general use because of a wrong inflicted decades ago against the country as a whole.

Not that I agree with Israel's demands (I think too much time has passed), but I can at least see a reasoning behind it. Greece's demands are just desperation and greed.

[sabrina 1]

6. Good for them and I hope they also start going after their Crooked Bankers and Politicians

who have stolen their assets and hidden them in offshore accounts. Getting back some of those billions would also help restore their economy and their sovereignty.

I am so thrilled to see Greece now leading to way to tossing out all those who caused the Global Crash and then made ordinary working class people pay their gambling debts. It's scaring the life out of the Economic Terrorists.

Hopefully other countries will now join Greece.

[2banon]

20. A meme which needs repeating: "Economic Terrorist" (taken from Economic Hit Man?)

[GummyBearz]

23. Even if they don't get it

I'm glad their new government stood up for themselves... hopefully they keep doing stuff like this (and start collecting taxes)

[Nye Bevan]

7. How much guilt do present-day German taxpayers bear for the deeds of the Nazis?

If it turned out that your grandpa had done something really bad, would you happily write a huge check to the grandchildren of his victims?

[jwirr]

12. They paid reparations to the USA.

[former9thward]

34. Do you have a link?

Payment to the U.S. is not mentioned in Wiki.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_reparations_for_World_War_II

[jwirr]

48. I was wrong see post 32. I looked on the a site called War Reparations and learned that we did not

get reparations because the Allied reparations was for damage done in your nation. We did back up the other Allies who did claim damage.

[2banon]

21. What's Happiness got to do with it? How about Justice?

[Nye Bevan]

26. So.... if it turned out that your great-grandpa had done something horrible,

would you write a big check to the great-grandson of his victim?

[2banon]

31. For starters, yeah..it's called Restorative Justice. (edited)

on edit: it's called Restorative Justice. Payment for Damages, theft, Pain and Suffering.

All that should be rather obvious, no?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

44. Restorative Justice would be the guilty paying for their own misdeeds. What is being described here

is called, "Corruption of the Blood."

[philosslayer]

51. Yes, you would?

Just to clarify. Your great grandfather stole from someone 80 years ago. There is proof. And he never repaid it. Let's say it was $5000

Now, the great grandchild of the victim is asking for a payment from you. With interest, inflation, etc, it comes up to $25,000. You'd pay it?

[2banon]

54. Straw man..

Nation States which willingly do harm to other nation states vis a vis military invasion, occupation, bombardment, theft of national resources and treasury demands justice and that means financial reparations.

Period. End of Story.

The United States has a moral imperative and obligation - vis a vis taxpayers - to make reparations to countless nation states to which we have done great harm. Israel has a moral obligation to the Palestinians, . Germany has a moral obligation to make reprimands to Greece and every other nation state Germany invaded and occupied in WWII. Yes, Indeed.

[philosslayer]

57. It's not a straw man

"Nations" are composed of individuals. No one (or perhaps a few thousand) in Germany today is responsible for any harm done to any Greeks in WWII. Yet you're asking those same individuals to pay a debt incurred by their ancestors. I fail to see the difference.

[polly7]

10. Good. I hope they get it. nt.

[dembotoz]

13. reparations worked so well after ww1--why germany learned it lesson and never bothered anyone again

[GummyBearz]

25. Germany wont pay

But its a symbolic way of standing up for themselves. Which is good

[2banon]

22. Good on the new Greek leadership..

[fbc]

38. I'm not sure this is constructive.

At least from reading Krugman, it seems to me that the only happy solution to the current Greek issue would be that Germany and the ECB come to realize that the goal of shared European prosperity is more important than their desire to punish Greece.

I'm not sure how creating more animosity works towards that solution.

[fasttense]

39. They should be asking reparations from banksters and Wall Street

They were the ones who pushed Greece into going into debt along with a handful of crooked Greek politicians. They should force Onassis and other corporate elites to pay huge amounts of back taxes. They were the ones who screamed for reduced taxes (and got it) and ended up causing Greece to have to borrow (from the corporate elites while paying the elites interest.)

What needs to be done is the whole freaking country from shipping to water works to food needs to be turned into co-ops where the workers vote on all decisions. Let the workers form systematic processes to decide how to run the industries and economies. Kick out capitalism and put in democracy.

[randome]

53. The Greeks are well known for dodging taxes, too.

Not everything is the fault of bankers. This is starting to sound like high satire.

"We're not going along with the EU!"

"We can get along fine on our own!"

"Hey! Germany! How about giving us some money?"

Whatever Socialist dreamstate they were in, it looks to me (definitely not an expert) that it's falling apart on them already.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]A 90% chance of rain means the same as a 10% chance:
It might rain and it might not.[/center][/font][hr]

[MisterP]

40. not actually the first time

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_reparations_for_World_War_II
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reparations_Agreement_between_Israel_and_West_Germany

hasn't seemed to have caused WWIII ...

[Cali_Democrat]

41. Dafuq?

[malaise]

42. Sweet

Make them pay

[JI7]

52. Greece has a high rate of Anti Semitism

if we want to learn lessons from that time ,they can start there .

[AgingAmerican]

55. Germany wants to cram more austerity down the Greeks throats

Good for the Grecians.