Who shot down the Malaysian airliner?

[another_liberal]

Russia says it had no AA missile batteries stationed close enough to hit the plane. The separatists in Donetsk and Lugansk say they don't even have AA systems that can reach thirty thousand feet (the altitude at which the plane was flying). Ukraine did have high altitude capable AA missile batteries in range of the plane when it was shot down, and Kiev had declared that part of its airspace off limits to all but its own aircraft. Everyone says there is no way they did it, but the plane was lost. Who do you think is guilty?

43 votes, 4 passes | Time left: Time expired
	Ukraine is guilty of downing the Malaysian airliner.
	5 (12%)
	Ukrainian separatists are guilty of downing the Malaysian airliner.
	33 (77%)
	Russia is guilty of downing the Malaysian airliner.
	4 (9%)
	The Malaysian airliner was lost due to some other, unknown reason.
	1 (2%)
	4 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided.
Show usernames Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

[Spazito]

1. Gee, let me go check rt to see...

I'm sure it has the facts on this.

[another_liberal]

6. By all means . . .

Join the UN Security Council investigation if you want.

Be sure and let me know what you find out.

[Spazito]

14. Well, I did find a hidden thread containing rt's propaganda...

that's good enough for me. A good hide, imo.

[another_liberal]

36. Are you accusing me of something?

Well?

[Spazito]

47. You asked me to tell you what I found out...

I did just that, told you about the hidden post. How on earth do you extrapolate an accusation from my simply acceding to your request? Strange.

[another_liberal]

56. Very funny.

I'll repeat: What are you accusing me of?

[Spazito]

59. I refer you back to post #47 n/t

[SidDithers]

9. Did you see what RT reported?...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025252653



Sid

[Spazito]

18. Yep, a very good hide, I hope rt is hidden every time it is posted...

the crap it spews doesn't belong on DU, imo.

[geek tragedy]

134. jury results on that.

Was President Putin's plane the intended target over eastern Ukraine?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025252653

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

COMMENTS

Posting Russian state propaganda to push an utterly foul and insane conspiracy theory, in order to shelter a rightwing fascist government from criticism, is an insult to the victims as well as this site's collective intelligence. This is disruptive, and WAY over the top.

JURY RESULTS

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Thu Jul 17, 2014, 12:39 PM, and voted 4-3 to HIDE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Agreed, this post is propaganda. 295 people are dead, and they're posting CT "speculation."
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: RT is an unreliable source
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I've been seeing so much right-wing propaganda spewing from our very own MSM these past few weeks that's also an insult to other innocent victims (and posted with ease right here at DU) that I honestly can't agree with this alert. If we have to be insulted by bullshit coming from our own Western news sources regarding "mistakes" and the ruthlessness of the various parties waging "War" around the globe, I see no reason to view something coming from RT as any more over the top, disruptive, or insulting. My vote is to Leave It Alone.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Replies fixing the problem.

[SidDithers]

178. Good alert, from the alerter...

thanks for posting the results

Sid

[LongTomH]

2. (Sigh!) Can we just wait for the investigation to be completed?

[another_liberal]

12. I was curious as to how people reacted initially . . .

Opinions will likely change as the facts come out.

[sufrommich]

17. Because peope voting in a poll on

an internet forum could cause the conviction of the wrong people. We are that powerful and renowned.

[Agschmid]

3. Can't tell you.

[Throd]

4. Still rootin' for Putin, are we?

[another_liberal]

15. Not me.

I just hate war and injustice, even if some people do think they're "Good for America."

[name not needed]

57. Unless, of course, Hamas or Russia are the ones doing the fighting.

[William769]

117. ROFLMAO!

You crack me up sometimes!

[conservaphobe]

5. Separatists controlled by Russia.

Everyone without aluminum foil hats knows this to be the case.

[flamingdem]

7. Or sometimes not so controlled

methinks

[conservaphobe]

10. I should've said loosely controlled.

Not as disorganized as say, Anonymous, but less organized than a standard battalion.

[Chan790]

8. One point of clarification/correction.

The separatists, as was pointed out on CNN about an hour ago, are demonstrably-lying when they say they don't have any AA batteries capable of reaching 30K feet as they were bragging less than a week ago about seizing one of Ukraine's AA installations and two days ago about downing a Ukrainian cargo plane which flies at 33K feet.

None of that says they definitely did this...but it does say they're lying when they say they don't have the capability.

[another_liberal]

19. I had not seen that report . . .

Oh, you said CNN. Never mind.

[NutmegYankee]

11. How the fuck can someone think Ukraine shot it down?

The rebels don't have an air force and the plane traveled over the country from west to east meaning they knew it couldn't be Russian. To believe such a thing is right up there with denial of Global Climate Change.

[another_liberal]

22. I don't follow you . . .

Why do you think Ukraine didn't shoot the plane down?

[NutmegYankee]

44. Because they have no reason to do so.

The rebels don't have an air force. And commercial air traffic has been flying over that area everyday. The Ukraine air traffic control centers know where the commercial traffic is flying. The Russians wouldn't have flown over the country from Poland (A NATO member nation would have said something!).

On the other hand, the Rebels have been shooting down planes and just the other day were elated to have shot down a Ukraine troop transport from 33,000 feet using a Russian design anti-aircraft missile. No one here can make an intellectually honest case that the rebels don't have such missiles. There are even photos of the rebels having such missile batteries.

How do you not follow that?

[Codeine]

48. They don't think that. Not really.

It's all about deflection and muddying the waters to protect their strongman and favored bullyboy.

[sufrommich]

55. This.There must be some kind of

useful idiot badge one gets for spouting the RT line.

[HooptieWagon]

13. Not positively known yet.

Most likely was the rebels, using Russian made equipment either captured from Ukrainian army, or given to them by Russians.

[another_liberal]

54. I still think it was another Ukrainian screw up.

One has to admit they haven't exactly had a spotless record in regard to only hitting what they intend to hit.

[sufrommich]

69. Of couse you do. nt

[SidDithers]

16. I suspect this poll isn't going to go the way you and RT hope...nt

Sid

[frazzled]

20. This is not something that is open to opinions

It can only be determined by fact-finding. In the immortal words of George W. Bush: who cares what you think (or what I or anyone else thinks).

Your opinion on this matter means zilch, squat, zero with respect to reality. Of course, I'm sure you're trying (in the way ideologues do) slap opinions out there in order to make make them into fact in peoples' minds. That's called propaganda. I'll await the fact-finding missions.

[another_liberal]

46. That's why it's called a poll . . .

And not a jury verdict, Hitch.

[frazzled]

58. A poll is not appropriate for probing such questions

A poll measures opinions. Opinions are irrelevant in this matter.

[Codeine]

21. Pushingest push poll in the history of push polling.

And it STILL isn't working out the way you'd hoped. Fail.

[another_liberal]

27. Don't imagine you know my motives . . .

It's clear you have no idea what they actually are.

[Throd]

29. Dude, you're as opaque as a pickle jar.

[thucythucy]

82. LOL!!

Opaque as a pickle jar! I love it.

[maddezmom]

32. Your motives have been clear for a while n/t

[another_liberal]

41. Are you accusing of something now?

What?

[Throd]

53. I am accusing you of being a cheerleader for the regime of Vladimir Putin and his interests.

There are a number of possible reasons for why you do what you do.

[another_liberal]

63. I do no such thing.

Your imagination is extraordinary if you truly think I "Cheerlead" for anyone.

I'm much more of a hater than a cheerer. For example: I hate hypocrisy and lies, especially lies from the rich and powerful to the poor and helpless. I also hate war and the men who live by it.

Getting the idea?

[another_liberal]

90. When do you imagine I said that?

Where the fuck did that one come from?

[maddezmom]

107. Never saw that and the link isn't working for me

But holy hell....disgusting.

[Agschmid]

108. Link also not working for me...

[Agschmid]

112. Delete the period from the link and it will work, it's at the very end.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025252653

I can't find where the poster said that, maybe you should remove your accusation?

[thucythucy]

113. Ah! Thank you!

Damn me and my meticulous punctuation!

Best wishes.

[Agschmid]

114. I don't see where the poster said what you insinuate...

Might want to check it out and make sure there are no false accusations?

[thucythucy]

128. You're right.

I'm going to have to track down the post I saw, wherein the "false flag" speculation was raised. It was a comment in response to the first reports that the airliner went down.

This link is to a RT story with a different speculative angle. Still weird, but not as egregious (to me anyway) as the one I'm talking about.

I'll have to find that post, and link, or delete what I've written here, as that would be the only honorable thing to do.

Give me a mo'.

[Agschmid]

130. Thanks.

[thucythucy]

136. I can't find the post, at least not tonight

Last edited Thu Jul 17, 2014, 11:45 PM - Edit history (1)

and so I am self-deleting all my discussion here.

I still think Putin is a homophobic tyrant, but my rants about Another Liberal are uncalled for without substantiation.

My bad, and I do apologize to all.

[Agschmid]

139. No apologies needed you did the right thing, clearly we are on the same page here...

I just don't see the poster saying that so I don't want to falsely accuse, thanks for understanding.

[thucythucy]

147. More importantly, I apologized to Another Liberal,

since the accusation was directed at him or her.

Weird thing is, I'm positive I saw that comment somewhere, but either I'm wrong and obviously confused, or simply can't find my way back to the thread in question.

Either way, without a link it's just a divisive rant--something I try to avoid.

What can I say? it's been a thoroughly awful day, for all sorts of reasons. I messed up.

Best wishes.

[EX500rider]

202. It was said here in this post but by another poster:

Speculation that is was a "international NeoCon plot".......lol
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014848218#post17

[The Magistrate]

125. Interesting, Ma'am: There Is Certainly Something Going On....

There is quite a mash note to be found here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5169424

"Putin is rough, tough, and nobody's sweet-heart...." suggests cover blurbs for 'TwiLight Romance' or some other publisher of bodice-rippers.

It calls to mind comments by Orwell on left intellectuals in his day, in particular comments contained in 'Notes on Nationalism':

http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks03/0300011h.html#part30

"But there is a minority of intellectual pacifists whose real though unadmitted motive appears to be hatred of western democracy and admiration of totalitarianism. Pacifist propaganda usually boils down to saying that one side is as bad as the other, but if one looks closely at the writings of younger intellectual pacifists, one finds that they do not by any means express impartial disapproval but are directed almost entirely against Britain and the United States. Moreover they do not as a rule condemn violence as such, but only violence used in defence of western countries."

"All in all it is difficult not to feel that pacifism, as it appears among a section of the intelligentsia, is secretly inspired by an admiration for power and successful cruelty."

The maudlin hero-worship of 'Putin is rough, tough, and nobody's sweet-heart...' fits perfectly into the mental attitude he describes.

[thucythucy]

142. I thought it came from a post you'd written in another thread,

but since I can't find the link I think I need to apologize to you and self-delete my discussion here.

I still think Putin is a homophobic tyrant, and the evidence, at this point at least, seems conclusive to me that this airliner was shot down--probably by mistake--by Russian separatists in the Ukraine, armed by Russia.

But I can't find evidence for the specific allegation I made against you, and so I've self-deleted, and will now offer this apology. I don't often screw up like this, but when I do the best and only decent thing to do is to own up and apologize.

I'm sorry I made what is evidently an unwarranted accusation against you in this thread. Please accept my apology. I'll do my best to not do it again.

Best wishes.

[thucythucy]

154. To elaborate:

the false flag accusation was made by someone else, in a post hidden by a jury. I saw this at about the same time your RT OP was hidden, and so I conflated the two stories. I finally tracked down the speculation I thought you were making, and see now that it wasn't you at all, but someone else (who evidently isn't posting much anymore). But since you've been all over these threads arguing essentially that it must have been anybody BUT the separatists, I attached your name to this other theory.

Again, I sincerely apologize, and hope you will accept my apology.

Best wishes,

Thucy

[Agschmid]

161. Thanks again for doing the right thing!

[maddezmom]

102. So tell us your thoughts on Putin?

[maddezmom]

61. No accusation, just stating the obvious to anyone paying attention.

[Duckhunter935]

67. correct

[another_liberal]

75. The obvious being . . .

What exactly?

[maddezmom]

76. I think by the responses on this thread you can figure it out.

[another_liberal]

95. You just won't own up to it . . .

I see.

[maddezmom]

98. LOL!!!!!!!!

Niether will you.

[Agschmid]

91. I'll just jump in here...

Today's been an interesting day and throughout the day you have had several posts which were not really based in reality, here is a break down:

First accusation of the US government being an active participant in what happened: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=848954

The first post where you assert the plane was shot down due to it being confused with Putins plane: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=848589

Double down: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=848644

Triple down: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=848708

Quadruple down: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025252653

Usually the quadruple down doesn't got so well, and it didn't today either. To assert that you aren't operating off a specific theory on this is ridiculous, especially now that more information has come to light. Your are entitled to your opinion, and hell you are even entitled to share your opinion over and over but don't get to be "holier than thou" when you get called on it.

[another_liberal]

97. Your point is what?

You envy me my ability to offer a number of posts on important questions of the day?

Do you feel it's wrong for me to criticize our government because it is doing something wrong? Other people around here seem to do that quite a lot as well. Will you be bringing it up with them too?

[Agschmid]

99. My point is you have a clear agenda, which you have now repeatedly denied.

If you are going to have an agenda, go for it... Just don't balk when called on it. I already made it clear how I felt about your posts when you posted them.

[The Magistrate]

133. Well Done, Sir

A masterfully presented case.

[maddezmom]

100. Thank you

[William769]

127. SHe is not accusing you of anything, she is stating fact.

You just don't like that she's called you on it.

[Codeine]

37. Your motives are as clear

as an unmuddied lake, AL. As clear as an azure sky of deepest summer. Everyone here knows what you're on about and what you're up to. You're no longer fooling anybody.

[another_liberal]

40. You are a poet . . .

How sweet of you.

[onenote]

119. Kudos for the Clockwork Orange reference!!

[Codeine]

124. Glad someone got it!

[MineralMan]

193. Sucks to RT's ass-mar, too.

[Starry Messenger]

23. I haven't really had a side to root for in this conflict, but it looks pretty bad for the rebels.

I read the transcript this morning of their people claiming the shoot, and it was credibly a group of people who thought they'd shot down a cargo plane and then kind of go "oh fuck" when they realize they killed a plane-full of civilians.

[another_liberal]

31. And those transcripts came from who?

If I am not mistaken our own NSA and military intelligence provided those transcripts. Aren't you even a little suspicious.

Remember the transcripts of phone conversations which were supposed to prove Syria used sarin gas? Remember how they turn out to be edited and altered to give the desired impression?

[Starry Messenger]

39. I prefer to use Occam's Razor here.

I think some people are going to weird lengths to make this more complicated than it is. But if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. It's a DU poll, not the UN Security Council.

[karynnj]

182. Syria DID almost certainly use sarin gas as later UN reports showed

Not to mention, the NSA did not release those transcripts.

YOU might want to look at Putin's own statement which very defensively blames Ukraine for creating the situation that led to the separatist movement and ending up saying that they have some blame for anything that happened in their country.

Now, I am the mother of three now grown kids. This sounds like a kid blaming the spilled milk on someone leaving a glass of milk on the table, which she just accidentally knocked over.

[Spider Jerusalem]

25. ....

Igor Sutyagin, a Russian military specialist at the London-based Royal United Services Institute, said he believed that either Russians or Russian-supported groups in eastern Ukraine were responsible. He said they had been shooting at Ukrainian aircraft over the last week.

Kalashnikov-carrying Russian sympathisers in Ukraine would not have had the expertise to use the Buk system and would have needed either specialists who had "volunteered" their services from Russia or locally recruited experts. Russia is alleged to have infiltrated special forces into Ukraine in the guise of rebels.

Sutyagin, who monitors social media in Ukraine, said a Ukrainian rebel force had been spotted just hours earlier with a Buk system at Torez, a village close to the site where the plane came down.

He added that a Ukrainian transport plane had been flying overhead close to the time that the missile was fired at the Malaysia Airlines plane, suggesting that may have been the original target. The transport plane had been trying to relieve a beleaguered Ukraine garrison.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/17/malaysian-airlines-plane-buk-missile

[another_liberal]

35. Maybe the Ukrainians wanted to try and score their own success . . .

Perhaps they shot it thinking it was Russian (heading for Russia) and doing so would even things up some?

[Codeine]

43. Maybe. Or maybe it was aliens. Or Freemasons.

Or Mossad (DU's fav boogeyman).

Those choices all make about as much sense as Ukraine doing it.

[Chan790]

60. Mossad doesn't make mistakes like this.

Besides they've got better shit to do and bigger things on their plate right now. If this was Mossad, whoever they wanted dead would be dead and they wouldn't need to blow up a civvie plane to do it.

That's not a criticism of you...I find it odd the amount of crap that gets boogiemanned onto Mossad here. Why never Shin Bet or Aman or Nativ? Israel has more than one scary-secret clandestine intelligence organization.

[GliderGuider]

62. They sure did in Lillehammer...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lillehammer_affair

[Spider Jerusalem]

45. Sure, and they made that separatist leader post something on his social media feed...

about shooting down a transport, right?

[Gravitycollapse]

81. That would only make sense if the Ukrainian government was suicidal.

Imagine the Russian response to Ukrainian forces shooting down a Russian aircraft.

Also, it appears the path of the aircraft travelled over Western and into Eastern Ukraine. The Ukrainian air traffic control, civilian or military, would have known the origins of the aircraft as they would have been observing it for quite some time and might even have communicated with it at some point. The rebels, on the other hand, would be in the opposite position. They would be witnessing an aircraft entering their territory. It seems obvious now that they didn't fully understand what they were firing at.

[bigwillq]

26. Don't know.

I don't really think any of us do.

[MADem]

28. Someone in the Ukraine, using Russian-supplied surface-to-air equipment, not shoulder fired, either,

did the deed.

I'm sure Putin knows to whom he gave his goodies.

[Gravitycollapse]

33. Or, as is being claimed, the separatists used a Ukrainian missile system they confiscated.

[joshcryer]

157. I'm sure the entire crew is no longer around.

Let's just put it nicely: they've been disappeared, to a farm somewhere.

[Gravitycollapse]

30. The separatists claimed responsibility for the attack when they thought it was a military plane...

Then deleted all traces of such claims after they realized it was a commercial airliner.

That's pretty much all the evidence I need on the matter.

[another_liberal]

38. I have not seen that report . . .

Do you have a link?

[maddezmom]

65. Sure you did...in the LBN thread.

[another_liberal]

168. Nope.

Got a link?

[maddezmom]

170. You were given the link here I believe....did you look?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5254512

[another_liberal]

173. You call that a believable source!

It's in Russian to begin with, the guy pictured is wearing a mask, and there is no way of really ascertaining its authenticity.

You'll have to do better than that

[maddezmom]

174. LOL!!!!!!

It is in Russian!!! OMG... You are funny.

[maddezmom]

172. Have you looked a the link yet?

[joshcryer]

42. Google cache of their claiming responsibility:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?hl=en&q=cache%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fvk.com%2Fwall-57424472_7256

This was before they knew that it was a civilian plane, they just knew that they shot a plane down, and rushed to post the video and claim victory.

[another_liberal]

49. What a source!

Russian text and no certainty as to authenticity.

[joshcryer]

51. That's Strelkov's official feed.

http://vk.com/strelkov_info

He deleted the post. You can use Google translate to translate it.

Amusing that you'd disclaim a source because it has Russian text, in a region of the world where Russian is the spoken language.

[muriel_volestrangler]

84. Here, does this help?

DONETSK, July 17. /ITAR-TASS/. Militiamen of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic (DPR) brought down a military transport Antonov-26 (An-26) plane of the Ukrainian Air Force on the outskirts of the town of Torez, eyewitnesses said.

A missile hit the An-26, it fell on the ground and caught blaze, they said.

On July 14, militiamen of the self-proclaimed Luhansk People’s Republic downed another An-26 of the Ukrainian Air Force.

http://en.itar-tass.com/world/741164

[maddezmom]

103. Does this one help?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025253860

[Gravitycollapse]

64. Excluding a conspiracy by the Ukrainian government to hack his account, that's pretty definitive.

[joshcryer]

88. If there was an Indonesian going to Thompson University...

...the intercept they got would be the most damning piece of information.

Given that there were 11 Indonesians on the plane, and this was before we knew the nationalities, I think it's looking damn proof positive they shot it down, knowingly. They just didn't know it was a civilian plane.

[Gravitycollapse]

94. Here's where it's going to get tricky...

They claimed to shoot down an An-26. But the service ceiling for that aircraft is 24,000 feet and the cruising speed is only 270 mph. Did the operators of the missile system not know that? Because what they shot down was 10,000 feet higher and traveling twice as fast.

Either someone royally fucked up, which I suppose is the likely explanation, or they knew they weren't shooting at an An-26.

[joshcryer]

105. Someone royally fucked up.

There's a Reddit thread on this: http://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/comments/2aypy5/strelkov_unknowingly_takes_responsibility_for/

Read SingleM4lt's comments, they seem very informed about the technology.

This part in particular:

What a screwup... Apparently a gang of nitwits were manning the SAM system, mistaking a 777 jet flying 900km/h at 10,000m for a AN-26 turboprop with a cruise speed of 440km/h and a service ceiling of 7,500m.

You need more than a manual to be qualified to operate a SAM system.

I think we can safely assume that all airspace above Donetsk and Luhansk will be closed now, not just up to 7,800m.

Edit: If I sound upset it's because I am. Second lieutenant SingleM4lt was trained on SAM systems.

What we do know is that it was willfully targeted and shot down and the rebel leader claimed victory over it.

[mindwalker_i]

34. Is McCain looking for another wife?

[MineralMan]

50. So, a poll of people who have no information is how we

decide. Cool. That simplifies everything.

No vote from me, thanks.

[another_liberal]

68. A poll won't decide anything, not at all.

I just wanted to see how people sampled out this soon after the incident.

It's a shame so many what to blame the separatists when all the evidence points to Kiev, but on the bright side very few people were ready to say they think it was Russia. That shows a good grasp of the obvious, at the very least.

[maddezmom]

72. All the evidence?

Sure if you read Alex Jones and RT! 😂

[another_liberal]

77. My opinion . . .

Like I said.

[maddezmom]

79. You are entitled to it

But looks like you have very few comrades on this opinion, go figure.

[GP6971]

115. No, you said evidence.

Please provide a link(s) if you can

[GP6971]

132. Why the silence?

What evidence?

[another_liberal]

169. Refer to my earlier posts . . .

And my more recent ones as well, if you are really interested.

Here's one to start with:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025255736

[MineralMan]

74. Nobody on DU knows!

Such a poll is worthless, entirely.

[Kaleva]

123. I don't think polls, even this one, are worthless

Many provide entertainment value. Some who comment try to buttress their position with what facts they may have which might provide useful information for the rest of us and it gives one a sense which way DU in general leans on the subject even if the known facts are skimpy.

One may wish to decline to vote in a DU poll for any reason such as not knowing enough facts to make an informed decision but I think this poll does have useful purpose.

[The Magistrate]

86. 'When All Evidence Points To Kiev'. You Say, Sir? Do Please Pass On This Evidence....

"Enquiring minds want to know!"

[GP6971]

93. What evidence points to Kiev? n/t

[IronGate]

101. What is this evidence you speak of?

So far, none has been provided, do you have a source you're not revealing? RT perhaps?

[Duckhunter935]

131. What evidence?

you sure got quiet all of the sudden when called to produce it. Go on post this evidence please.

[Agschmid]

153. No posts since 8:32...

So that's my evidence that they realized their argument was flawed.

[EX500rider]

200. Correction: I think you meant "none of the evidence points to Kiev."

[Kaleva]

92. It's like a poll about which NFL team had the best draft.

[old guy]

158. I didn't vote either.

The only thing I know with 100% certainty is that I didn't do it!

[JustAnotherGen]

52. I want to step back

I don't want to jump on any opinion.

I interned for a Congress woman the summer of 1994 and I got that add on because of a paper on genocide. I want more info - and to see how it blows up. We never did anything for the Rwandans when a plane got blown outof the sky - I want us to do the right thing.

Once i grab onto a belief I'm like a dog with a bone. So whatever I'm going to believe I'm going to have to defend. And I'm going to want justice for this action.

I want to be very clear about what I'm defending here . . .

The only thing I believe absolutely is - we didn't do this.

[SidDithers]

66. This thread is all kinds of awesome...

Sid

[another_liberal]

71. I posted it just for you, of course.

Enjoy.

[greatauntoftriplets]

73. Ain't that the truth?

[EX500rider]

206. It's not just a river in Egypt is it? lol

[FBaggins]

85. Yep

And the reality re: RT seems to be sinking in.

[geek tragedy]

70. Russians in Ukraine. Duh. nt

[HooptieWagon]

83. Russians might be better trained...

... to ID a civilian airliner, not that they're incapable of a fuckup. This has earmarks of an undisciplined, poorly-trained, missle crew with itchy trigger fingers.

[Throd]

111. Like a chimpanzee with a shotgun.

(I think) Putin fucked up and gave advanced technology to a bunch of amateurs who would make emotional decisions versus tactical ones.

It's like throwing the keys for a Mustang GT to some teenagers and telling them "Now keep it under sixty, boys".

[HooptieWagon]

129. They could have captured the SAMs from Ukr Army,

Assuming it was the rebels, we don't know from where they got the missles.

[Trajan]

78. This one is a complete stinker ...

Honestly ... what balderdash ..

[hrmjustin]

80. To be determined.

[BillZBubb]

89. I don't know, but I suspect the separatists.

They've shot down planes before and they don't have a command and control structure to guarantee they don't do something stupid like shooting down a passenger jet.

[zappaman]

106. The bigger question is

how does Obama get blamed?

[Godhumor]

109. Amazing push poll, even better results. Love it. n/t

[William769]

116. I guess you gave given up trying to blame Ukraine for trying to shoot down Putins plane.

Or is that still on the table?

[geek tragedy]

118. Did you see this one?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014848337#post152

Since the plane was painted in Russian colors of white, red and blue . . .

It was much more likely a Ukrainian fighter pilot who made the attack, mistaking the passenger jet for a Russian aircraft.

I swear, this one must be a performance artist.

[William769]

121. OMFG!

We have comedy Central right here!

[Agschmid]

122. I like that when they posted the OP they used an image which wasn't even Putin's plane.

That's a shell game for you.

[Duckhunter935]

135. I work in air defense

even with the high powered cameras we had on some of the systems you could not distinguish colors. Best you could do ais a shape at under about 30-40 K. We could get visual locks way out past that but it was just a dot.

Paint colors on a plane what a joke.

By the way I worked on Russian systems and there cameras were far worse.

I have time in the SA-6 and the SA-8. and work in simulators for the SA-11 and the SA-15.
I have also worked with MANPADS SA-7 and SA14/16
For the US I have maintained the Hawk and Patriot systems

I think I have some experience in this area.


That item center right below the missiles and above the radome is the camera.

[Agschmid]

137. I'm sure the camera would have the clarity to see 4 vs. 2 engines.

Most of the time my naked eye can almost distinguish that on a clear day.

[greatauntoftriplets]

138. Maybe someone failed math and couldn't tell?

[Agschmid]

140. Lord, they failed out early.

[greatauntoftriplets]

141. Yeah, the difference is pretty hard to miss.

[Duckhunter935]

148. depending on distance

yes, even easier if the aircraft had a contrail. I used to use the contrail to zero in on a radar lock if I had a finicky track radar. If your system was sighted correctly with the camera center the aircraft in the camera and adjust the track radar to peak return and lock it.

The older Russian cameras (black and white) were not very good but they may have better ones now.

[herding cats]

150. That's this poster?!

I thought they were working a shtick and stopped paying attention to them soon after that post. They can't be serious, though. Read through the thread here, they only own their position up to a point then they hedge. That's not how someone with convictions addresses a situation. They're just playing with the people here is what it looks like to me. Which, considering 298 people, an estimated 100 of which were esteemed AIDS activist, are now dead, I don't find this to be in the least bit funny.

[geek tragedy]

151. No, this one is known for believing only what Putin tells him to believe nt

[herding cats]

155. I've run into some of that today so I'm not saying it doesn't happen here.

Sometimes it's difficult for me to tell who is serious and who is just looking for an argument. I'll bow to those here who know the historic postings of others much better than I do on this matter.

I'll leave you with this sign placed at the Dutch embassy in Moscow today. It reads, "Excuse us."

:large

Not all Russians are blind to Putin. We need to remember that in the days ahead.

[Cha]

163. Exactly herding..

"They're just playing with the people here is what it looks like to me. Which, considering 298 people, an estimated 100 of which were esteemed AIDS activist, are now dead, I don't find this to be in the least bit funny."

And, 3 babies were aboard..

[herding cats]

166. Everyone lost is a tragedy.

All their friends and families are currently suffering their losses equally. The babies... that one cuts deeply. So much loss today for so many people. I can't even begin to imagine what the families are going through trying to process everything.

[Roy Serohz]

120. Obama, of course!

Don't you watch FOX?

[L0oniX]

126. Quote: Obama shot the jet down.

Quote from some idiot republican.

[betsuni]

143. Donetsk, don't tell.

[Throd]

146. Booooooooooooooo!

[KamaAina]

144. This was the same type of plane -- and the same airline! -- that was lost

over the Indian Ocean. Are we sure it was shot down?

[Agschmid]

149. Yup.

[Gravitycollapse]

159. Considering the US government has stated they tracked the missile system used, yes.

[Strelnikov_]

145. God

or AT&T

[mike_c]

152. talk about polling the uninformed....

If you know the answer, please share your knowledge.

[another_liberal]

167. Lighten up already.

I just wanted to see what people were thinking about this tragedy. No one will "know" anything at least until the investigation concludes.

One thing is certain, though, a lot of people around here will look pretty foolish if it turns out Ukraine did it after all.

[maddezmom]

171. Bookmarking

[Codeine]

175. And you're going to look like a toadie when it comes out

that your pet Putinista separatists did it.

[IronGate]

192. And your going to look like an idiot when it comes out that pro russian rebels

fired the missile.

[ozone_man]

156. A better question

is why the flight path was so close to restricted airspace? Its conspiracy theory, but anything at this point falls into the category of speculation.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-17/was-flight-mh-17-diverted-over-restricted-airspace

[Agschmid]

162. The website also says Tesla cars are a conspiracy theory... Yipes.

http://moneymorning.com/ext/articles/tesla/secret-tech-project-operation-bluestar-revealed.php?iris=227776&chid=11&crid=1xd&utm_term=zemantaone_adblade.com

*it links to this!

[ozone_man]

164. A poll as to who is responsible

opens up all kinds of speculation. Why did this flight fly into dangerous territory, when previous flights stayed south? Seems like a valid question. I have no position on Tesla, seems like a very expensive car to achieve what it does, but that has nothing to do with this OP.

I enjoyed listening to Rachael Maddow tonight relating the story of how the U.S. shot down an Iranian jetliner, ~1988 I believe. First it was an F-14, then maybe they were wrong about that, then it was a mistake.. These stories take a while to get to reality, and then do we ever know for sure?

[moondust]

160. Probably incompetent separatists.

Demanded more weapons from Moscow, Putin obliged, separatists didn't have the training to operate more sophisticated weaponry. Trigger-happy local saw a blip, assumed it was a Ukrainian cargo plane, and pulled the trigger. Oops!

[TBF]

183. This looks most likely -

no matter how much everyone is going after Putin's head and trying to drag the US into WWIII.

Not a fan of Putin but I don't see what he has to gain by shooting down a passenger airline. Most likely an accident by separatists. Second choice would be the incompetent new gov't of Ukraine.

[Cha]

165. Putin's missile.

BBC News (UK) ✔ @BBCNews
Follow
THE SUN: Putin's missile pic.twitter.com/R2o3fsc3Ja #TomorrowsPapersToday #BBCPapers via @hendopolis
12:20 PM - 17 Jul 2014 221 Retweets 65 favorites

TOD

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

176. I skipped voting last time I saw this thread, but after seeing the

threads that showed the separatists crowing over having captured exactly the kind of missiles and launcher that was used, as well as the boasting web posting about having shot down a plane that was google cached before the separatists realized it was a civilian airliner, I gotta go with 'another_liberal's beloved separatists' as the most likely perpetrators of mass murder here.

[Jamastiene]

177. Too soon to tell.

I don't know enough yet to make any kind of informed guess. Maybe it could have been an entirely different group of people who is responsible, perhaps testing their weapons out. That is not meant to be funny. It is a possibility, at least. I just don't know enough yet to make any kind of guess that makes sense.

[MohRokTah]

179. NOW CONFIRMED, SEPARATISTS FIRED THE MISSILE

IT's no longer conjecture. US Intelligence confirms after triangulating the data that the Separatists fired the missile.

MATH says it was the terrorist bastards Putin has been sponsoring.

Breaking live on CNN

[Agschmid]

184. Think they will self delete...

Naw.

[MohRokTah]

186. They've obviously looked into Putin's soul

[TBF]

190. I know the beating of the war drums is fierce -

but to me this looks more like an accident if done by the separatists.

If Putin wants to blow something up he has plenty of weapons and I think he's arrogant enough to take credit for it.

[MohRokTah]

191. Looks more like depraved indifference

It looks to me as if these thugs were just firing at anything that flies without even considering that it could possibly be anything other than military aircraft.

But these people are operating at the behest of Putin, so Putin bears responsibility.

[Bad Thoughts]

187. Someone will double down

... but in another post.

[Agschmid]

189. We are now on about the 6th double down...

Honestly not even sure what to call it.

[SidDithers]

180. I love the tranparency of "Show Usernames" in a poll like this one...nt

Sid

[underpants]

181. Mr. Ghazi

His friends call him Ben

[randome]

185. The NSA shot it down, hoping to pin it on Snowden.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]All things in moderation, including moderation.[/center][/font][hr]

[Godhumor]

188. Code name was Operation Snow Job n/t

[snooper2]

194. instead of just calling them "separatists" why don't you go all in and call them "freedom fighters"

[SidDithers]

195. Kick for more visibility...nt

Sid

[Codeine]

196. So now that the separatist scum are keeping

the crash investigators away from the site with gunfire, are you willing to admit that your pet Putinista thugs shot the fucking plane down yet, or are you going to septuple down on your bullshit?

[geek tragedy]

197. Where is the OP? nt

[Codeine]

199. Discretion is the better part of valor? Lol nt

[KamaAina]

198. Benghazi!

[randys1]

201. Poll says 83% Russians love and trust Putin

this tells me all I need to know about any news source he has any control over

what a sad joke


(saw the poll on msnbc so I trust the source)

[Codeine]

203. Has the OP flown the coop?

Inquiring minds want to know.

[geek tragedy]

204. shame kick! nt

[Codeine]

205. The OP clearly realized his agenda was a lost cause.

He'll be back when he and his cronies have been issued fresh talking points by their friends at RT.

[SidDithers]

207. Kicking...nt

Sid

[Codeine]

208. another_liberal, come back!! We promise to be nice!

I'm sure you guys can sweep this whole issue under the rug with enough RT links!

[another_liberal]

210. You don't have to be nice . . .

Just be honest with yourself, and I'll be fine.

[Calista241]

209. Bush did it!