The flag as a fetish.

[MadHound]

Periodically it comes around, somebody in the US burns a flag and lots of people, right, left and center, get all upset about desecration of the flag, calling for new laws, prosecution, or at least a good scolding of those who put did the torching. Lots of odes to the flag are printed and spoken, lots of vitriol is spewed, and all in all, a good time is had by all and things go back to normal, until the next time.

A bit of perspective is needed however.

First of all, what is the flag? In concrete terms, the flag is nothing more than cloth, stitched into a design that we all recognize. In short, it is a symbol, that's all. Burning a flag does not damage the country, it doesn't kill anybody, in fact the proper way to discard of an old flag is to. . .burn it.

Meanwhile Americans put the flag on everything, their cars, their heads, hell even their asses(and frankly I think putting a flag on your ass is more of a desecration than burning it). Yet despite using the flag as corporate propaganda, slapping it on our bottoms, using it as a condom(yes, you can get red white and blue rubbers), despite desecrating it in every form imaginable, people only get up in arms when we burn it.

What that says to me is that we've developed a fetish about the flag. Not as in some kinky sex fixation(though go to any adult toy store and you can find all kinds of patriotic flag toys), but rather in the sense that it has become some magic talisman that in many minds has actually taken the place of what it stands for. We have watched as our country has been taken away from us and given to the few, the elite. We have stood by as politicians of all stripes have shredded the Constitution, and continue to do so. But relatively little fuss is raised though these ongoing acts of destruction continue.

But burn a flag, oh the horror. Even though it is a Constitutionally accepted form of free speech, whenever the rare occasion arises where a flag is burned a huge uproar is raised. Some tsk-tsk that it makes a particular group look bad. Others demand even further destruction of the Constitution via an anti flag-burning amendment. Some even threaten death to those who perform such an act. All this uproar over a symbol, yet so little ruckus raised when what that symbol stands for is shredded, ripped or burned.

What a strange reversal that is, truly. It reminds me of another society where the flag became a fetish, Nazi Germany. There, every single flag was physically "blessed" by the original blood flag, the flag that flew and was bled on at the head of the beer hall putsch. No, I am not saying that we are Nazi Germany, or some sort of fascist nation. But the similarities between then and now in the way we fetishize the flag are indeed striking, striking and troubling.

For when you put more stock in a symbol than you do in what that symbol stands for it is a certain sign that your country, your society is in trouble. It is a sign that we have lost our way when we put more stock in defending a symbol from freedom of expression than actual freedom of expression itself. It means that we are traveling a path where symbol means more than substance, illusion is worth more than reality, that we are manipulated into false outrage over a piece of cloth, but unmoved when what that cloth stands for is desecrated.

So I say let the flag burn. Better a flag burning to make a point about our disappearing freedom than having it fly unscathed over a nation where there is no freedom. Rather than getting outraged about a symbol, it is time to take action over the outrages currently besetting our country. We have much more important issues to worry about than a perfectly legal form of free expression, we have the real thing, our country, to regain and restore to all of us.

[nobodyspecial]

1. Yes, let's burn more flags

That is the answer!

[MadHound]

2. Wow, I guess my point did a complete double backflip, right over your head

That's OK, move along, move along.

[SammyWinstonJack]

6. And made a whooshing sounds when it did.

[unionworks]

41. you seem to show up

On every jingoistic divisive op on D.U.!

[MadHound]

48. Well, some people like to watch fires burn,

Some people like to watch threads burn

[bluestateguy]

3. Freedom to commit an act of free expression does not mean freedom from criticism or rebuttal

Flag burners (few of them as there are) tend to forget that.

[MadHound]

5. Have you ever put some thought into why somebody burns a flag? n/t

[bluestateguy]

7. I guess

But I suppose I could ask someone why the Westboro Baptist church holds their picketts too.

After all, they need to be "understood".

[Luminous Animal]

11. Actually, they do if one is dedicated to having an intelligent conversation.

[Luminous Animal]

9. The number of DUers decrying the burning of a piece of cloth while tacitly

accepting brutality and loss of liberty of citizens exercising their Constitutional rights is quite telling.

The cops stood by and did NOTHING to intervene while witnessing the flag burners. Not one person who walked into City Hall (yes, walked in... the door was unlocked) was arrested. Hmmmm. Meanwhile, their fellow officers were kettling, beating up, and arresting PEACEFUL protesters.

[stevenleser]

15. No DUer is doing those things. You are inventing those positions all on your own

No DUer is decrying the burning of the flag. There are DUers who are concerned that doing so will cause many folks to concentrate on the flag burning that upsets them and not on the message of advocacy for the 99%.

Also, no DUers are accepting brutality and loss of liberty for citizens exercising their rights.

[MadHound]

18. Really? Looking around here the past few years you could have fooled me

For instance endless threads today going on about the evils of flag burning, but hardly a peep about the US violating the sovereignty of another country(again) to carry out a summary execution.

And if you look back at the NDAA discussions, you will find numerous posters who defend it.

And on

And on

And on it goes.

[stevenleser]

23. No one on DU is talking about the evils of flagburning. That is YOUR strawman

I've read all the threads about it. The folks arguing against it are basically saying that it is a stupid move considering the effect of the imagry on a large segment of the country. That is very different from claiming it is 'evil'

[MadHound]

25. Well despite your protestation, and loud protestation at that,

Yes, people around here are damning Occupy for *gasp* burning a flag. If you don't get that, you aren't very good at comprehension. They are doing much more than saying it is a stupid move.

But you know that already, you're just trying to defend the indefensible.

[mackattack]

27. could you provide a source

or two to support that argument.

There is a search button in the top right of the screen. thanks.

[MadHound]

30. Cool, then you can use it

Or better yet, just peruse the first few pages of GD threads on the subject of flag burning. You'll see what I'm talking about.

[mackattack]

36. Well usually when you make an assertion

the responsibility is on you to back it up with facts.

That, for instance, is why we were so mad at GWB. He said Iraq had WMDs but didnt provide any proof. I guess he could have just told us to go there and check it out if we didnt believe him.

[mackattack]

47. Were at downthread?

There is a lot of stuff down there. I read through it and didnt see an instance that would match it. Can you give the post #


Stay classy

[MadHound]

50. Let me guess, you want to be spoonfed at dinner time too.

And have your nappies changed instead of using the toilet like a big boy. Geez, goodnight.

[mackattack]

51. I require my students to cite their sources

I will hold you to the same standard.

[MadHound]

52. Well sorry, but I'm not one of your students

And I expect that as any sort of teacher worth their salt, you can do your own research, especially when all you have to do is click a scroll down.

But then again, salt seems to be a scarce resource for some people.

[mackattack]

60. hmmm

"Well sorry, but I'm not one of your students"

Evidently, they know to have facts and sources ready before they publish an argument. They can also back them up without childish retorts. Can you do that?


"I expect that as any sort of teacher worth their salt, you can do your own research."

So I can make any claim I want and then state I am correct until proven wrong? However, in this case you can never be proven wrong considering there is an infinite number of posts here on DU and no matter where someone looks, you will always state that they didnt look hard enough.

You have, by your own admission, seen these posts. You know the exact post to look for and/or the exact wording. We do not. You need to provide a source or you have no argument.

Just because you want it to be true doesnt mean it is.

So, start giving links or you have no ground to stand on.

[mackattack]

63. Obama is a Kenyan and a secret muslim

That birth certificate was a fake. I know he was born in Kenya... and he really prays to Allah. I know its true.

I dont have to provide sources. If you dont believe me, that is your fault. The info is out there. Go research it for yourself unless you are too lazy.


See how ridiculous it is to use that logic?

[stevenleser]

35. He knows he is wrong. He really loves the strawman he created but cannot back it up

No one is saying what he suggests they are saying.

[stevenleser]

28. Nope, you are still not getting it. Try reading what people are saying instead of imputing opinions

You might eventually get it, although with the reading comprehension skills you have exhibited, one cannot be sure.

[MadHound]

33. Oh I get it,

You just don't like the fact that I'm calling out the fetishists on their bullshit.

[stevenleser]

37. You are calling out nothing and no one but the strawman you created. thats why you cannot link to

any examples.

[MadHound]

39. Actually a perfect example just turned up downthread, check it out

Stick around, I'm sure more will come along as well. Lucky for those folks who are too lazy to do their own research.

[stevenleser]

43. LOL, that person is not saying what you are hoping they are saying either. nt

[MadHound]

45. Wow, you do have a comprehension problem don't you.

Ah well, have a good evening anyway, time for me to go to bed

[cstanleytech]

77. Some people might be damning them, others like myself just dont give a damn one way or the other.

After all its their right to trash talk people who burn the flag just like its the right of people to burn said flag.

[Luminous Animal]

70. Yes. Soooo many posts about the "stupid" move of a couple of dozen out of a couple of thousand.

It reveals where many DUers affiliations lie.

In every birth of a movement, the 1% and their apologists will amplify the "mistakes" while ignoring the message being advocated by the majority.

[Bonobo]

20. Do you know what "tacitly" means? nt

[Luminous Animal]

49. If the concern is not over a piece of cloth, then all those professing concern would also

be particular about putting the burning of this piece of cloth into perspective.

But they don't. They don't mention the 1000s arrested. They don't mention the tens of thousand brutalized. The don't mention the 100s injured. For me, those truths are far more damaging that a couple of dozen burning a piece of cloth.

""Flags are bits of colored cloth that governments use first to shrink-wrap people's brains and then as ceremonial shrouds to bury the dead." -Arundhati Roy

[nadinbrzezinski]

55. Or the flags thrown on the ground by cops

or worst... sent out with the trash.

If they were so concerned, they would be screaming bloody murder over that too

[stevenleser]

57. No, people can state an opinion on one issue without having to bring anything else into it.

I can discount any opinion if I simply add the phrase, "But since you didn't talk about the people starving in X your opinion doesnt count" and replace X with a country, state or town.

[sabrina 1]

56. Amazing, isn't it? I am stunned that those flag burners were not arrested, and that there was a

photographer right there ready to film the whole thing. But more stunned that we have people on the left, more than willing to do the work of the Corporate media for them.

They arrested over 400 peaceful protesters, but did not arrest the flag burners. Too bad as if they had, we would have found out more about them. But then, maybe that is why they did not, after all, what could the cops want more than to have a few morons stage something like this so that the far right could use it against OWS. Makes you wonder.

[stevenleser]

62. I've seen that opinion raised elsewhere. I really think Occupiers are too smart to do this.

Those that I have met the three or four days I've spent down at OWS are much too smart to have done something so stupid.

Not that a few idiots couldnt have come down and done this. But the vast majority of the movement are just not this dumb.

Interesting that those doing this werent arrested. Not for the flag burning part, but for the trespassing part.

[sabrina 1]

66. Considering how the robo cops were grabbing people off the street and arresting them from

beginning of the protests, which started early in the day, it has been raised as a question, why not those who were actually doing something that might be considered illegal.

No Occupier I know is in favor of this kind of thing, and from the beginning in their literature from even before the first day in NYC, they dealt with these issues and made it clear that there was to be 'no violence and no destruction of property'. However, they knew that if the movement grew that there would be incidents like this, that there would be infiltrators and agents provocateurs, and in fact, from early on, discovered and photographed some of them who they followed to their police vans. So I agree, this certainly is not something a majority of those involved would ever approve of, they know the media would use it to distract from the important issues they want to focus on.

[Luminous Animal]

74. Personally, I am not univerally against storming government & private institutions.

I supported then and still support now the night of "Gay Rage" against the verdict of Moscone's & Milk's murderer's feeble murder sentence and the response was to take a battering ram to the front doors of City Hall. I supported then and I support now the take over of university buildings in the 60s & 70s. Hell, boycotts and sit-ins were characterized as the taking of property.

What is disturbing to me about these multiple post about the flag burning is that so many people are concerned about how the actions of rather powerless people might have on the general population while having little consideration of how brutality against those powerless people might have on the general population.

A woman had her spleen burst by a police baton... a man had his teeth broke out. Dozens of others were targeted and dragged out of the crowd.. some by their hair... because they were targeted by the police as being effective leaders. Women were forced to pee in cups in front of officers to prove that they were not pregnant (under the reasoning that they'd be given a "safe" incarceration).

Where are the OPs decrying the actions of the lackey's of the 1% who are perpetrating this violence against human beings. Where are the OPs wringing their hands worrying about how it might look that the 1% is brutalizing the 99%

Nope. Rather it is post after post after post characterizing flag burning as violence.

[sabrina 1]

75. I feel sick reading your post. I know what you are saying, and I too am outraged over what

was done to those women and other protesters and find it appalling that here on this Democratic board with pro-1% under the guise of 'concern' for the movement while, as you say, not one iota of concern for what happened to people at the hands of one of the country's most brutal and anti-constitutional police departments.

Makes you wonder frankly, maybe, and I've had this feeling for a while now that it may be time to move on. A lot needs to be done, and I feel sometimes lately here, that I in the wrong place to focus on the real issues that are vitally important to this country.

I completely agree with you on the issue of how it is sometimes necessary and very understandable when citizens have just had enough and they begin to fight back. We cheered the Arab Spring and the Greek uprisings where buildings and even Govt officials were attacked (Greece) out of a sense of total desperation over what has been done to their country. I hope it never gets to that point here, but for many millions of Americans, it already has.

[Luminous Animal]

76. (heart) I suggest that you don't leave. You have an amazing command of language

and thus the power of persuasion. Using that power here is as important here as elsewhere and you can do both. There is a reason why I rarely post anything that could be characterized as an anti-Obama post. I don't want to be kicked off and at the very least, I want to stay here to defend OWS against the propaganda of the 1%.

I won't assume what you are involved with IRL but if you are not already, I would suggest getting involved with a local organization that deals with an issue about which you are passionate. Even an hour or two a week means so much.

[emilyg]

58. You're making things up.

[Luminous Animal]

65. Nope. Not one of those who walked into City Hall, vandalized, stole a flag, burned it outside

of the building, were arrested by the cops who were protecting the building before and during. Not one.

[backscatter712]

73. This needs to be mentioned in an OP.

The cops let the people storm City Hall, break things and burn that flag with zero arrests.

Meanwhile, they were kettling, arresting and violently assaulting non-violent protesters who had nothing to do with the flag-burning in a different part of town.

[Luminous Animal]

4. Yes. The flag! The flag. Meanwhile our fellow citizens are being brutalized.

DUers cheer an American citizen being blown away on secret evidence but apparently can't handle the destruction of a piece of cloth.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. And you know what is even more ironic

specific to this event... cops have taken flags from vets. They have thrown them on the ground. They went out with the trash.

Yup, all of these were recorded, and not a peep... only if it is burned. I find the ignoring cops actually doing those things amazing.

(Oh and yes sitting down on a flag on your but is agains the flag code, but you knew that... I wonder how many of those horrified realize that serving hot dogs on flag printed paper plates on the fourth of July, is against the flag code too.)

I might add the flag burning ceremony (in at least two countries) is very similar and symbolic... you could even say moving.

But that is another story, and what is even more ironic is that the US flag being burned IS free speech. That flag stands for free speech... that seems to go over like WHOOSH!

[whatchamacallit]

10. "traveling a path where symbol means more than substance"

Like this one



K&R

[joshcryer]

12. So, not an agent povocateur?

[MadHound]

13. Are asking if I am one? n/t

[joshcryer]

34. Nope. Tired of the people saying the flag burners are.

[MadHound]

44. Cool, just wanted to get that cleared up

[unionworks]

59. Have the flag burners

Been arrested, even though they had timeto pose for pics that are all over the net? Have any beenarrested and charged with vandalism? NO ! I call bullshit.

[joshcryer]

67. Yes, they have been arrested in other instances (trumped up charges).

The guys who burned the flag at Oakland City Hall tucked tail and ran. One of the Occupy Oakland people said one of the people responsible was an Occupier. I have no reason to disbelieve that person and I respect their anonymity (especially if the flag burning could lead to a felony for destruction of property).

In Charlotte the flag burners there "caused $30 of landscape damage" (oh scorched ground, boo hoo), and were arrested: http://www.wbtv.com/story/16416265/protesters-arrested-uptown-after-setting-fire-to-the-american-flag

Meanwhile, flag desecration (including burning) is a very long held protected speech right: http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/more/desecration.htm

At most you can get busted for starting a public fire against an ordinance, which is what happened in Charlotte. They did not get arrested for anything else. "All four men were charged with being careless with fire. That charge is a misdemeanor under the city ordnance."

You can get charged with that for lighting a piece of paper on fire, or hell, throwing a cigarette butt on the ground (and that's a littering charge, too).

[RKP5637]

14. It is a fetish. We used to call them the "flag people," sticking flags on

everything. You summed it up well IMO, a flag fetish. Somehow that puts them on a high ground in their mind, in judgment of others. ... not always the case, but often IMO.

[stevenleser]

16. You are missing the point.

I discuss this here--> http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=249578

[MadHound]

19. I'm not just speaking to one poster's thread,

But to the endless damning of and handwringing over Occupy Oakland burning a flag. If you haven't seen those threads, those posts, then you simply aren't looking.

[stevenleser]

22. I know you aren't, you are missing the point of the 'handwringers'

The point continues to be, your positions can be as right as can be, if you screw up the delivery, you arent going to get anywhere.

[MadHound]

24. So there is a right way and a wrong way to deliver a message of protest?

Gee, you never would have made it in the early labor movements, the Civil War, or for that matter any major uprising in this country. Horror of horrors, they weren't PC about their protests, they set out to make their point, and did so in whatever manner that they saw apt, be it burning a flag, burning a building, tarring and feathering, on and on.

Oh, and guess what, all those incorrect, non-PC protests actually helped achieve things, like ending slavery, winning the vote for women, gaining civil rights for all, winning this country's freedom, on and on I could go.

When you are fighting for your freedom, when you are fighting for what is right, sorry, but you don't play by the Marquis of Queensbury rules.

[stevenleser]

26. Yes, there are right ways and wrong ways to deliver messages of protest.

Think Westboro baptist church.

Your examples make no sense at all. THe civil war and labor movements both preceed television let alone the internet.

Don't be as dumb as Republicans and ignore the fact that mass media, like Youtube, exist. You cannot shout a slur like Macaca at someone and expect to survive politically, nor can you burn a flag.

[MadHound]

29. Don't be ignorant of our history

And *gasp* there was mass media before the internet, TV and radio.

And while I don't agree with the Phelps family fools, you've got to say, they know how to get their message across. Everybody knows that they think that "God hates fags" and that our country is going to hell because of gays. Why? Because they were rude, crude and protested outside of funerals. No way would they have gotten the kind of exposure they now have if they had played by the "rules". Can't argue with success now, can you?

[stevenleser]

40. What success? Westboro hasnt achieved any of their objectives! You want to Westboro-ize Occupy?

That is your model and recipe for success for occupy? To make them as hated and reviled as Westboro?

[MadHound]

46. Of course they have, are you that foolish?

They've raised their name recognition tremendously, and rolled in the dough, both at the same time. Wow, not only do you lack comprehension skills, but also apparently the ability to discern what people are truly up to. Don't tell me that you thought that the Phelps family was all about establishing a theocracy. That's just the show they put on for the rubes, oops, wait, never mind.

[stevenleser]

53. Is there anything you actually do understand? I encourage you to talk about THOSE things.

Here is a hint, politics and issue advocacy aren't among your strong suits.

[markpkessinger]

78. I posted on the flag burning thread ...

I posted the text of a message I had posted to Occupy Oakland's Facebook page.

I agree with you about the fetishization of the flag, and I agree that reaction to flag burning incidents is always overblown (it's a piece of fabric, for Christ's sake). So my concern for Occupy Oakland was not about the flag burning, per se, nor was it a matter of being concerned with "political correctness." My concern was purely a strategic one (i.e., that the corporate media, eager to slander the Occupy movement at every turn, would seize upon the photo of the event in order to turn public opinion against the movement.

Rightly or wrongly, the flag, as a symbol, carries a great deal of emotional freight for many people across both political and socioeconomic spectra. And for a large swath of the American public, many of whom are predisposed to be a bit suspicious of protest movements anyway, an image or two of Occupy protesters burning a flag is all it would take to convince them that everything Fox News, et al. have been saying about the protesters is true. It isn't a rational, analytical response to jump to that conclusion, but rather a visceral, emotional one. And conclusions people draw based on such emotionally-laden, visceral reactions are often far more difficult to alter and dislodge, irrespective of the facts of the matter.

Like it or not, there is a PR aspect to all political/protest movements that represent a significant challenge to entrenched power structures -- an aspect that simply must be factored into any such movement's strategy if that movement is to be successful. In short, I was trying to point out, purely as a matter of practical, on the ground strategy, might be, as a strategic matter, a stupid thing to do. Belittle it as "handwringing" if you must, but the concern is simply based on what I've observed in my 50 years on the planet about the way protest movements can sometimes undermine themselves by resorting to tactics that might, in the moment, be emotionally satisfying, but can potentially do a lot of political damage in the long run.

[sabrina 1]

61. Well, what was the right way to deliver the message during the Civil Rights era? An awful

lot of people back then seemed to think MLK was not delivering the message in the right way. He was scaring 'white people' I guess by having the nerve to try to get equal rights for African Americans. I'm very glad he decided not to worry about how he was delivering that message, things might be very different today had he succumbed to all the criticisms he received.

Btw, I thought you were a supporter of OWS? Did you ever go to that GA in NY?

[stevenleser]

64. I'm a huge supporter of OWS.

See my response to you upthread.

MLK was very careful how he phrased what he said, just as occupy has been up until now. King's speeches were masterful exercises in making sure no one could accuse him of being a radical while proposing or demanding radical change.

One of the things no one is talking about is, no one at OWS has burned a flag until now. I think occupiers are too smart for this. I dont know who it was who did this but they are out of step with Occupy one way or another.

[sabrina 1]

71. Thank you and my apologies if I misunderstood you.

I hope they find out who they were. That they were wearing masks should not prevent the cops from identifying them, if they wanted to. Enough people were there who saw them someone had to know, assuming they were NOT infiltrators. But I agree, this is not at all in line with what OWS is all about.

[markpkessinger]

79. Very good point...

... And MLK faced tensions from factions within the African American community who thought he was being far too guarded in his approach, and who wanted the Civil Rights movement to pursue a much more militant stance than the non-violent resistence MLK insisted upon. Had those forces prevailed, I think they would have set back the cause of Civil Rights significantly. And that is precisely my worry with respect to certain elements in the Occupy movement.

[Gorgomorgo]

17. Breast milk cheese? Have you seen this?

One of my vegan friends posted this on my Facebook wall. It's...interesting. I'm not opposed to the idea of breast milk cheese so long as it's been tested, but REPLACING dairy milk with human milk? I don't know....

&feature=player_embedded

[MadHound]

21. And this is relevant to this thread how, exactly?

Or did you just see the word "fetish" and do a knee, or some other, jerk?

[RKP5637]

54. How does this fit in with the topic being discussed?

[gulliver]

31. A lot of people think your position makes sense, but it doesn't.

The word America is a symbol for the country too, just as the word Mom is a symbol for the person. Suppose your Mom gave you a hand-embroidered decorative pillow. When you looked at it, you would not be thinking of the pillow. And you wouldn't want someone running into your house, grabbing it and burning it. If your Mom lost her job because a private equity firm liquidated her business, you wouldn't show up at the firm's headquarters and burn a picture of your Mom.

Fire + Flag...just not enough symbols to articulate much. It's simplest interpretation is "burn the country." That's about the only interpretation really. And then there is the secondary "Person+Fire+Flag" which symbolizes either an asshole Person who wants to burn the country or a moron Person who thinks "Fire+Flag" doesn't mean burning the country. No offense...words are just symbols of course.

[MadHound]

38. Speaking of not making sense. . .

But hey, thanks for being an almost perfect example of the point I was making with my OP.

[Kamikaze1]

32. k&r n/t

[cherokeeprogressive]

68. Everyone has the right to burn the flag. I reserve the right to call flag-burners

pieces of shit.

But you go on and write your essays about it if it helps you rationalize the act.

[Fawke Em]

69. The flag is a piece of cloth.

And, if you're gonna make it out to be something else, the follow the fucking flag code.

Highlights: Don't wear it. Don't leave it up at night without light. Don't leave it up on non-sunny days. Don't eat food on it. Don't leave it on the ground. Realize that burning it is far more repsectful than any of the previous statements I just made.


In other words, shit or get off the pot.

[msongs]

72. this issue seperates the progressives from the closet conservative love it or leave it" crowd nt

[markpkessinger]

81. You're right, it is just a piece of cloth - but that doesn't mean . . .

. . . that publicly burning it, be it protected speech or not, necessarily serves the larger agenda of a particular movement. As a matter of strategy, it can be a downright stupid thing to do.

[inna]

80. thank you, thank you!

(gasp & breath of fresh air amid all the M$M-propagated flag fetishism/cultism)

If I could nominate this as a thread of the month, I would!


Maybe it's too early to give up on DU after all!

[Kellerfeller]

82. Burning a person in effigy does not damage the person,

and it doesn't kill anybody.

So why do people get upset when someone does it to a person they care about?