For Lurking MAGAS

[DemocratSinceBirth]

“In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here.”

-Ronald Wilson Reagan

`You can go to live in France, but you cannot become a Frenchman. You can go to live in Germany or Turkey or Japan, but you cannot become a German, a Turk, or a Japanese. But anyone, from any corner of the Earth, can come to live in America and become an American.”

-Ronald Wilson Reagan

[DemocratSinceBirth]

2. That's a veritable threefer

Tu quoque fallacy, ad hominem fallacy, and genetic fallacy.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

4. We are discussing whether or not we are a creedal nation.

Are we? That's a question every member of our august community can answer.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

8. A creedal nation or a Blut and Boden Nation

A creedal nation is a country defined not by a shared ancestry, ethnicity, or religion, but by a shared set of political ideals and principles. The United States is the quintessential example, famously united by the "American Creed"—the ideals of liberty, equality, and democracy outlined in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.


"Blood and soil" (Blut und Boden) is a far-right nationalist ideology that defines a nation by race (Blood) and the specific territory it inhabits (Soil ) Originating in Nazi Germany, it argues that a specific ethnic group's identity is inextricably linked to its ancestral land, fueling ethnic exclusion and violence.

You can't be both.

[Kali]

12. for fucks sake

this place isn't for you. fuck off. english enough for ya?

[Skittles]

31. PREACH IT KALI

YES INDEED

[DemocratSinceBirth]

13. Are you saying some people are incapable of assimilating?

How do we know the good ones from the bad ones?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

16. That's not what today's decision was about.

It was whether or not a person born in America is an American

[niyad]

14. What flavour pizza do you like?

[Cha]

26. It was this flavor

[wnylib]

6. St. Ronnie Raygun was wrong in his statement about not becoming

a Frenchman, or German. (Don't know about the other nations he mentioned.)

Other nations have naturalization processes, too. The US is not the only country that accepts outsiders to become naturalized citizens.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

18. He is saying being an American is larger and deeper

If I have enough money I can move to France, start a business, and become a French citizen, but I'll always be looked out as that American guy. Reverse the situation and the Frenchman will be seen as an American.

[wnylib]

24. That might be what he meant but I don't agree.

After some years, an American who became a naturalized citizen of France would be regarded as French by many people, especially if he or she lost their accent. People would probably not forget the American origins, but would accept the citizenship.

Here in the US, a frequent American conversation is to discuss ethnic heritage. Hyphenated IDs are common, e.g. Irish-American or German-American.

I spent my early childhood in a neighborhood that always seems to attract the latest wave of immigrants. My mother had lived there as a child when there were German and some eastern European immigrants there, plus a couple Italian immigrants. My parents bought their first house from a German speaking Hungarian family friend in the neighborhood.

My mother was first generation American of German parents. My great aunt, who was born in Germany lived with us after her husband died. But the neighborhood had become primarily Italian-American by then. Older couples there were Italian immigrants. Younger couples were first and second generation Italian-American.

We all got along well enough with different holiday customs and religions. But the German, Italian, and Hungarian identities were strong. People did not say, "I'm Italian-American." Or, "I'm German-American." They said, "I'm Italian." Or, "I'm German."

The same thing was true of the other side of town, which was primarily Polish. And the Irish and Russisn neighborhoods were the same.

Even in high school where we met kids from other neighborhoods, kids from old WASP families who had been in America since colonial times identified themselves as Scots, Scots-Irish, Anglo-Saxon English, or Norman English.

In the US, people keep their ancestral ethnic identities for generations.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

25. I see your point.

I see things through the lens of my mom and dad. They were first generation Americans. My mom was born in Augusta, Georgia and my dad was born in Da Bronx, New York. Their parents were from the old world, a world they were far removed from. They saw themselves as Americans.

[Wonder Why]

28. I beg to disagree. I am proud of my heritage. That doesn't mean we don't think of ourselves as 100% American. We

are also proud of our heritage and our ancestors who came here, mostly as poor immigrants, not as conquerors.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

29. My mom's family left Russia after the Revolution of 1905

One step ahead of the latest pogrom. My dad's family left Poland around the same time. All I know of their time there is a policeman hit him with a baton in his ear for the crime of being a Jew.

[wnylib]

32. I am lnot saying that there is no pride among immigrants and their

descendants in being American. I am only saying that Americans are also very proud of their ethnic ancestry while being American.

I was responding to a post that said an American who became a naturalized citizen of France would not be accepted as French but would always be regarded as Ametican.

I was pointing out that something similar is true of Americans. We don't lose our ancestral ID, but still consider ourselves American. And others see us in our ancestral ID and also as American. The same would be true of an American who became a naturalized French citizen. The American ID would be there, but they would still be accepted as French. Or maybe hyphenated as "American French."

Other nations have values and ideas that they regard as theirs, just as Americans are held together by values and ideas. The British are proud of their belief in fair play. They express it in a statement when they see something unfair or unjust. They say, "That's not cricket." Cricket as in the ball game rules, not the insect.

I think it would be much harder for an American to be accepted in England, though, than in France. Brits look down on us as a former colony not quite as gooid as the parent country. I sometimes think of them as adolescents who never quite outgrew dependency on parents (monarchy). The French took a rocky road to Independence from parental monarchy, but did mature eventually into a stable republic.

[paulkienitz]

19. All of those nations have a naturalization process.

It may be rare or difficult in some places, like Japan, but a path is there.

[Fil1957]

7. You know times are tough when Ronald Reagan quotes are being posted in a positive light on DU.

[calimary]

9. No kidding.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

10. Powerful endorsement of the sentiment we are a creedal nation and not a Blut and Boden one.

There's also a great quote from Washington.

[progressoid]

20. Ronald Reagan couldn't be elected with today's GOP

[MarineCombatEngineer]

21. Today's MAGA Repigs would view R. Reagan as a liberal and, as you said,

would not be nominated, much less, elected by the repigs.

[Dave Bowman]

22. For Lurking MAGAS:

[Vogon_Glory]

23. Thank you for posting this

MAGAs and other right-wingers richly deserve to be reminded that there was a time when the US welcomed immigrants from many countries, rich and poor alike, and wasn’t fixated on their ethnicity or religion.

Your quote wasn’t from some “Commie-Lib” left-wing quasi-socialist, but from Ronald Reagan, a conservative Republican with a vision and a talent for inspiring and motivating people. If MAGAs and other right-wingers wish to forget what Reagan stood for besides beating up on liberals and honest-to-gosh genuine (As in Marxist-Leninist) Commies, Tough kibbles. And if the words make them squirm, so much the better.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

27. I voted for Carter and Mondale, of course.

That being said every post WW ll president would have endorsed that sentiment, but Trump.

[WestMichRad]

33. Well said. Thank you.