The Schumer/Jeffries Softening On Masks

[gab13by13]

Got me to thinking. We have had a lot of debates here regarding moderates v progressives, some people still have scars.

I don't think it's a moderate v progressive issue here. I say hey Chuck, have Chris Murphy help you negotiate. Hey Hakeem have Jason Crow help you negotiate.

Murphy and Crow aren't far left progressives, but they do have courage.

No fucking masks and make them wear identifiable uniforms with name tags. That's not asking a whole hell of a lot. FFS.

[leftstreet]

1. This isn't even a negotiation

To negotiate you start with ABOLISH ICE

Then the other sides say OMG no - how about we'll remove masks

Then your side says...

etc.

What a joke

[gab13by13]

6. Here's the deal,

Democrats will get pummeled if they say abolish ICE, there's another way.

DHS funding expires Feb. 13th, if Democrats were to just demand that the Gestapo goons must follow the law, such as having local and state police be allowed to investigate the Good/Pretti killings and any other shootings, with full access to evidence collected by the Feds, guess what, Congressional Magats will not agree to that. Then let the funding expire and blame Magats for not agreeing to reasonable rules.

Democrats have the upper hand here if they stay strong, but Schumer and Jeffries are off to an awful start.

[mopinko]

13. i think a lot more ppl r sick of the 'moderates' than the 'radicals'.

ppl want to fight. if there’s no 1 w any fire, they’ll stay home.

[FoxNewsSucks]

32. You couldn't be more right

Fuck these cowardly republican-appeasing "moderates".

It's too late for that.

[ananda]

36. I think Dante's lowest circle of hell is for moderates.

I've thought this for a long time.

[Bettie]

57. Moderates are the people pushing

the Overton Window to the right.

[ananda]

60. Overton Window

I had to look it up, and that is exactly right.

It makes what used to be unacceptable, acceptable.

[Bettie]

61. Yep, what is currently called "the far left"

were called moderate Democrats not too long ago.

The mainstream Republicans we have now used to be the fringe, the nutjob theocrats on the far right.

[Cirsium]

42. Would they?

Would Democrats will get pummeled if they said abolish ICE?

[karynnj]

67. Consider that the Republicans could correctly argue both Obama and Biden used ICE

when they were President. "Eliminate ICE" will be equated with don't control the border and allow criminal "alien" to stay in the country.

However, neither Biden or Obama sent roving bands of ICE to states they wanted to punish. To my knowledge, they followed local laws, identified themselves and did not use the Kavanagh rule that they could pursue people who "looked" like they could be here illegally. ( Speaking of which, that rule condones racial profiling and should be challenged.)

In addition, both gave TIP status to refugees from troubled countries and resettled highly vetted refugees in places with local support to help them assimilate.

The idea that we carefully call for MAJOR specific reform ... and probably a shrinking ICE force is likely what most people would agree with. What is really needed are many things the bipartisan immigration bill called for including more immigration judges.

The current policy is guided mostly be white supremacy. It is rare that any white European people living here undocumented are picked up in these actions, while many POC with American citizenship are

[Cirsium]

68. Here in farm country

For years ICE most certainly did not follow local laws, did not identify themselves and did pursue people who "looked" like they could be here illegally - brutally, routinely. It was much worse than it is now. It was difficult to get people to pay any attention to that, despite our warnings for years that it would someday be turned against them.

This never had anything to do with immigration. It is militant white nationalism.

Worrying that "Eliminate ICE" will be equated with don't control the border and allow criminal "alien" to stay in the country is buying into the white nationalist agenda. It is not going away. We can confront it now, or continue to kick the can down the road. The longer we do that, the worse the ultimate consequences will be.

[0rganism]

50. Said "pummeling" certainly would have been the case a year ago, now "abolish ICE" seems the sane, moderate position

Last poll I saw, a hefty chunk of the electorate deeply fucking hates ICE now, so abolishing ICE and CBP would not be the extreme political belly flop it once was. However, it would require significant effort to massage this idea smoothly into the news cycle of a press deeply embedded in F47's anus, which is perhaps why they took the alternate approach they did.

Your 2nd-para take is likely how events unfold, but somehow Schumer and Jeffries make the Democrats look weak even when we're getting a strategic win. Somehow it comes off as lesser, underpowered, careless, even when it's the best Dems could reasonably do. This is just bad PR. Granted, the media hill has become quite steep over the last decade, but someone other than Sen. Schumer needs to be announcing party positioning on important issues.

[Cirsium]

41. Exactly

You never start negotiations with the very least that you would settle for. That's what I say. But who am I? They are playing a game that is so sophisticated and so far above our meager understanding that we cannot even begin to fathom just what the hell it is that they are doing. I'm sure it will all work out great. It's been good so far, hasn't it?

[tishaLA]

44. I'd start with dismantling DHS

It was created in the wake of 9/11 but it's a behemoth with too much power and too little oversight. If we break it up, not funding DHS is no longer related to things like FEMA

[spanone]

2. K&R

[Scrivener7]

3. We should be saying, "You guarantee there'll be no more murders, kidnappings, illegal entries,

assaults on protestors, terrorizing of children, and then we can talk. Till then, you better not be asking us for anything."

Instead, while they're pulling that shit and making no plans to stop, we're going to get into a conversation on when masks are acceptable?

What is wrong with those people?

[gab13by13]

12. Democrats should have Congressional Magats by the short hairs.

Make the Gestapo get court warrants before busting into private property.
Allow local and state police to investigate the Good/Pretti killings. Investigate every time a Gestapo goon fires his weapon, regular police get investigated.
Demand that local politicians, lawyers, the members of the MSM, clergy, be allowed in concentration camps.

Schumer and Jeffries, come up with a list of those demands and then get your people united to not vote for funding until those demands are met.

I feel that Democrats are going to steal defeat from the jaws of victory.

[Scrivener7]

15. Me too. Again.

[creon]

4. no masks wear a badge

ICE does not wear a mask
wears a visible badge with serial number.
and a visible name plate.

[gab13by13]

8. Some of their uniforms only say POLICE,

that isn't enough, doesn't identify who they work for.

[creon]

56. that is wrong

[Chasstev365]

5. Who is giving them such horrible advice?

More importantly, why can't they have the courage to hold firm and say NO NEGOTIATIONS ON THIS POINT?

[Takket]

7. I don't want any softening on this.

Get rid of the masks or shut down DHS.

[mopinko]

9. dumb ass david axelrod is warning

about saying ‘abolish ice’

Axelrod warns Democrats against campaigning on abolishing ICE

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/5715690-axelrod-warns-democrats-ice/?fbclid=IwY2xjawPw9mNleHRuA2FlbQIxMABicmlkETFhejFkTWcyU1Jhc2pma0F0c3J0YwZhcHBfaWQQMjIyMDM5MTc4ODIwMDg5MgABHkn7UdQ0Rfkxx648cshRAXUtGayQuslyGb_AeXIHf3Uipajk0AVdp_lWmTaP_aem_BgMCqoNxBfYQZvj88FWjPQ

dude hasnt been right about anything since 2008.

[mzmolly]

11. F Axelrod. We don't need ICE like we need a police force.

I never agreed with the "defund police" mantra. But I agree that ICE should be abolished.

[mopinko]

20. personally, i understood it.

it was just too short. but saying ‘reform’ doesnt work, cuz that’s been tried over and over and over, and nobody buys that any more.
defund doesnt mean abolish. it means take away their spendy toys, and send other professionals to do the shit cops dont want to do anyway. i never cd come up w a pithy way to say that, tho. i’m usually pretty good at that. explaining complex things to idiots may b impossible in this enshittified age.

[mzmolly]

23. I understood it, too. But it had to be explained as you note.

It was an asinine talking point. That said, Minneapolis has come a long way since the dark days of Bob Kroll, thankfully!

[AZProgressive]

27. The Democrats are using the same playbook

that they used to counter defund the police are actual accountability the leadership pushed "reform" such as body cameras which hasn't made the police less violent and a lot of footage from body cameras never see the light of day. The same playbook they used to counter outrage against police they are using for ICE.

I agree with you as far as ICE not being as important as local police departments but Democratic leadership is using the same playbook against real ICE accountability the same as they countered outrage over the local police departments.

[mzmolly]

28. And at the same time, Steve Bannon is saying ICE

will be used to intimidate voters. They’re saying what the game plan is. Complaining after they steal an election isn’t going to do us any good.

[gab13by13]

19. It's OK for protesters to hold up signs that say Abolish ICE

but Congressional Democrats have to be smart about it.

Make the demands, strong demands, and sure as shit, Congressional Magats will say no. Well then when Feb. 13th rolls around, funding for DHS expires and Magats can be blamed for it.

[mzmolly]

30. Good plan!!

I hope Democrats are smart enough to do just that!

[AZJonnie]

48. I agree with your take on this thread

[vapor2]

10. Effn weak leadership

[W_HAMILTON]

14. The article that started the hysteria that led to more Democratic bashing *literally* included Murphy.

But Sen. Chris Murphy (D-Conn.), who joined Jeffries and Schumer behind the lectern, said there has been no significant shift.

[betsuni]

39. I'm waving my ABOLISH SCHUMER protest sign in front of the computer, muttering personal insults at Democrats,

but still don't know why I'm supposed to be angry.

[Cha]

47. Yeah, I asked WHY The OP in That Thread Left OUT THIS PART?

"Just common sense dictates that there are sometimes safety reasons why you may need a mask,” Murphy told HuffPost. “But no, I think our position is very clear, that if you’re using a mask to obscure your identity in everyday law enforcement, that should be prohibited by law.”

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=20996652

[red dog 1]

16. K&R

[DJ Synikus Makisimus]

17. Elect more moderates this year so we can have more of this!

Complicity and collaboration, not confrontation!


#antifademocratsforrevengeandretribution

[EnergizedLib]

18. I absolutely hate this

The biggest scum control the trifecta, and we have the most feeble leadership to combat them.

Once again, the Dems don’t inspire me to vote for them, MAGA inspires me to vote against them.

[FoxNewsSucks]

33. Yeah, and I'm so sick of my vote being taken for granted.

I want to vote FOR politicians who will kick fascist ass. Not look for ways to appease them.

[dalton99a]

40. The so-called leadership is worse than useless.

[usonian]

21. OUT WITH THE SECRET POLICE PARAMILITARY GARB.

Do you remember?



FIGHT FOR WHAT'S RIGHT.

[IcyPeas]

22. Masks are used to TERRORIZE. no masks!!!

[mzmolly]

24. I'm unsure I agree with the headlines on this.

“Police officers don’t wear masks. Sheriffs don’t wear masks. State troopers don’t wear masks. There’s no justification for the manner in which ICE is conducting itself in terms of masks,” Jeffries said Tuesday in an interview with “PBS News Hour.”

“Defending ICE agents wearing masks and giving them special treatment, especially when they are so brutal and thuggy, is totally against the views of most Americans who want basic accountability,” Schumer said Tuesday on the Senate floor.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/democrats-ice-masks-dhs-shutdown_n_69839db8e4b053ac3e17298d

[FascismIsDeath]

25. There is no "softening on masks".

As I said in another thread...

They might as well get ahead of the ridiculous reasons Republicans will use to shoot down any restrictions on masks whatsoever.

"Well, Democrats are trying to get them all killed when the next pandemic hits"

"Democrats want make sure the cartels know who's family to target whenever we have agents communicating with informants"

Just take those talking points away from them now instead of having to explain themselves later. Put an iron clad proposal on the table that refutes as many of their disingenuous arguments as possible.

The goal is for ICE/BP to be held to the same standards as regular police officers as far as identifying oneself. Lets make sure that happens.

I'll also add, that you if you read what they are proposing, it will effectively prove that they hired a bunch of untrained, white supremacist, proud boy, militia types.

[gulliver]

26. I think the masks are unfortunately necessary

The ICE agents are running up against more and more coordinated IT.

It's a bit scary what self-organized groups are now capable of doing. I like official government agencies that conform to the law and are paid by taxpayers. I don't know who any of these other people are, and I don't think anyone does. Even they don't know who they are. They are routinely infiltrated, as we see in the news.

If Schumer and Jeffries carve out circumstances where ICE agents wear a masks, I trust their judgment.

[thucythucy]

31. Why should ICE be permitted masks

when state, county and local police aren't?

Or do you think all law enforcement should be permitted to operate masked and without having to show badge numbers or other identification?

What makes ICE the exception? Aren't all members of law enforcement vulnerable to "self-organized groups?"

[gulliver]

35. They are being targeted in an organized way

Badge numbers and ID are absolutely necessary, imo.

We can't have arbitrary groups using cheap IT to track and potentially attack law enforcement though. It's just becoming too easy to do. If left unchecked, law enforcement can become impossible to staff or perform. I think the democracy absolutely wants and absolutely needs laws.

[thucythucy]

37. Law enforcement has always been a relatively risky profession.

The solution is to investigate, indict, and convict those that target LE using due process and the proper legal venues as established under our constitution.

Not to grant thousands of federal law enforcement agents virtual immunity from any consequences for their illegal and in some cases physically abusive and even lethal behavior by making it impossible to determine who among them are themselves breaking the law.

Personally, as a rape survivor, I have real problems with the idea of masked, heavily armed and unidentified men pulling people, including women and children, into unmarked vans. We already have instances of people pretending to be ICE committing sexual assaults and robberies. Of course, since we don't know who are ICE and who aren't, we can't be sure that at least some of these assaults weren't being committed by actual ICE agents.

Yes, democracy needs laws. And it needs law enforcement that is answerable to the people. Not a secret police force evidently answerable to no one but themselves.

There's a reason why every tyranny in history has valued the services of a secret police.

[Scrivener7]

58. But we have "law enforcement" using cheap IT to track and attack citizens. THAT is where the law is breaking down.

Not the other way around.

[FoxNewsSucks]

34. WTF??????????????

These are the same MAGAt assholes who refused to wear a mask to prevent the spread of a deadly disease.

But it's OK with you to wear a mask to hide their identity when they murder, assault, and brutalize us?????

Jesus H Christ, this is why we lose, and why we're doomed.


Fuck!!!

[0rganism]

51. No.

[aocommunalpunch]

55. You're actually defending ICE masks?

Fuck all that noise. Just contemptible.

[Scrivener7]

59. Yup.

[pinkstarburst]

64. The police do not wear masks

They wear their name on their uniform, their badge number, their face is fully visible and they have body cameras.

This does not eliminate all problems, but it does serve as a deterrent. Let's not be naive.

The reason ICE is acting like a bunch of berzerker thugs, killing innocent civilians and pillaging and destroying everything in their path, is because they feel absolutely free to do so with no penalty of backlash because their faces are covered and they can't be identified. If their faces are uncovered, their behavior will improve. We weren't having these issues with people interested in doxxing ICE before because ICE wasn't a gang of 7 thugs surrounding an ICU nurse and executing him in the streets, or executing a mom who'd just dropped her kid off at school.

[gulliver]

65. It's a very difficult problem

We don't have cases where other types of law enforcement (local, state, FBI, reservation, etc.) are being doxxed. If our elected Dem leaders see that as a problem and want to do something to curb it, including with masks, I trust them.

[thucythucy]

29. How about we also demand, before any money is approved,

that a complete list of ICE agents be provided to Democratic leadership, with the understanding that the names will be cross referenced to look for convicted felons, January 6th rioters, people with a history of domestic or other violence, members of far right groups such as the Proud Boys, etc.

I repeat: this should happen BEFORE money is approved, since we know this administration will ignore any restrictions or regulations once they have the money, just as they've ignored the law on releasing the Epstein files.

[Hassler]

38. Real negotiations would start with disarming ICEholes

A paycheck and carrying a gun is the only reason these goons are ICE-holes.

[AZJonnie]

49. Also getting to dress up in their cosplay "Tactical" costumes that they bought with the money

meant for the kid's trade school that mom saved up working two jobs.

If those don't function as work uniforms, mom is really pissed.

[Cirsium]

43. Damn

If we can't say "abolish ICE"...

[C Moon]

45. trump is wasting huge amounts of tax payer money for his own powerr and enjoyment.

I don't think our Congress can see the forest for the trees (using a tired old idiom).

[Bread and Circuses]

46. I can't believe that people are discussing negotiating with the fascists! !

NO!

Shut down the government!
DEFUND ICE.

General strike!

We’ve lost time negotiating with republicans.

They are murderers and rapists.

Wake up!

[EdmondDantes_]

52. Interesting that you specifically mentioned Chris Murphy

,After the press conference, Schumer ignored a question from HuffPost about whether Democrats had changed their position on masks. But Sen. Chris Murphy (D-Conn.), who joined Jeffries and Schumer behind the lectern, said there has been no significant shift.

“Just common sense dictates that there are sometimes safety reasons why you may need a mask,” Murphy told HuffPost. “But no, I think our position is very clear, that if you’re using a mask to obscure your identity in everyday law enforcement, that should be prohibited by law.”

https://www.msn.com/en-us/politics/government/democrats-soften-their-demand-to-ban-masks-for-ice/ar-AA1VG28T

Seems like he doesn't disagree with Schumer and Jeffries.

[Scrivener7]

62. Seems like he had to mitigate the gaffe by restating the fact that masks should be prohibited by law.

They said it, he had to walk it back.

Why did they say it in the first place? What was the point of that?

[malaise]

53. I'm sick of them

Period

[luv2fly]

54. Shocking I tell you!

Says no one...

[Joinfortmill]

63. Amen. And if you can't manage any guts, fucking retire.

[Blue Owl]

66. Arguing about the arrangement of the deck chairs on the titanic

How about just ABOLISHING THE WHOLE GODDAMN THING????

We didn't ask for body cameras or complain about attire.

WE ASKED TO GET ICE OUT, PERIOD.

DID. WE. STUTTER???

[flying-skeleton]

69. This should be the RED LINE

No masks & ID Tags
This should be a red line.
And NON-NEGOTIABLE ‼️‼️‼️‼️