They wailed so loudly about "stealing" the 2020 election and they've made us afraid to say they stole this one.

[lees1975]

https://substack.com/home/post/p-151923500

Take it however you want, I think we have the right to make sure that the massive number of people they got into the counting centers and operating the election didn't cheat us out of it. There's a lot that doesn't look right and doesn't seem very consistent with past patterns, or even with the exit polling data. No harm in checking it out on a large scale and the Republican candidate should be happy to have his straight up honesty confirmed, right?

[enid602]

1. democracy

Once democracy slips away, it’s hard to get back. SS, Medicare, Medicaid, ACA will be impossible to retrieve.

[Irish_Dem]

3. Yes that is the plan.

To make the damage is so severe it can never be repaired or reinstated.

[Irish_Dem]

2. Yes sociopaths usually accuse everyone else of the crimes they commit.

So when the victims report crimes every one is confused.
And victims are afraid to come forward because they are accused of lying.

We can see with the GOP it is an effective strategy.
No one is allowed to ask reasonable questions about the election and
are accused of being "conspiracy theorists."

This is also an old government trick to silence legitimate questions.

[FullySupportDems]

54. Projection has worked so well for them

We should accuse them of it every time they talk crap about Dems. Automatically accuse them of everything they say. It will usually be true too.

[Irish_Dem]

67. Yes psychopath accusations are actually confessions.

They are telling us about their own wrong doing and crimes.

In a healthy adult society, people tend to put pieces of the puzzle
together and understand they are looking at criminals and liars
who are not respected or tolerated.

But in current day US, Americans admire the liars, criminals, rapists, etc.

[ramedy]

4. You are absolutely correct.,

Pretty weak.

[Think. Again.]

22. But it's working.

[BlueTsunami2018]

5. Yes, that's the trap we put ourselves in.

We literally cant say they stole it now after beating the tar out of them over their claims the past four years.

And even if it’s true, it’ll just look like the sour grapes we’ve accused them of having.

They’re great at this shit. I hate them but they’re great at it.

[Think. Again.]

23. Yes, we can...

We can continue to show them they were lying 4 years ago while also calling them out and investigating any crimes they may be committing now.

Yes. We can.

[Zeitghost]

55. We can

If we have evidence. So far we have none.

[Think. Again.]

61. Letcs do the recounts and get it, then.

[Zeitghost]

62. As you have been told over and over and over and over and over again

While spreading your BS disinformation here on DU, audits are happening all over the country right now. And so far, not a single irregularity from those conducting the audits has been noted.

[Think. Again.]

64. Yes, let's do recounts to find the "irregularities"...

Time is running out.

[Progressive dog]

6. Elections are hard to steal

Trump proved that in 2020. Unless we have evidence beyond a reasonable doubt, then the election will stand. We have no evidence that is reasonable.

[OldBaldy1701E]

27. So we should not look further?

We know what is at stake. Is it now too much trouble to defend democracy? Forget the media frenzy, just start examining the results. We don't need a photo op every five hours to examine results. We don't need press coverage and special committees and such. If there is nothing wrong, then there is nothing wrong. Correct?

Personally, I like the idea of doing a hand count in the seven swing states. If there were issues with the machines or StarLink, that is where it will be obvious. (Disclosure: this was not my idea.) If no issues appear, then there was nothing wrong with the election. Unlike the rethugs, we won't start screaming the second we decide to demand a recount, but will maturely await the outcome to see if there were issues. If there were not, then there were not. There seems to be more and more circumstantial evidence appearing that indicates something was amiss. Which is why there needs to be a bit more scrutiny.

(Also, that orange gibbon did not try to steal the election. He tried to overthrow the existing government. The election had been over for months. Just my opinion.)

[TheKentuckian]

47. It seems to be the same absence of evidence as yesterday and the day before that.

[Callie1979]

58. The law doesnt allow it unless the margin is small enough

In GA it wouldnt be.

[TomSlick]

39. This is a topic for which reasoned discussion is not well received.

Many are convinced President Biden was wrong and Vice President Harris was wrong. How do they know? They just know. Occam's Razor? They don't buy it.

People are having a hard time moving past denial to deal with grief.

It's time to move past the election and focus on resisting the coming terrors.

[bikes and bunnies]

41. You won't get the evidence you require without a recount!

It's like requiring a DA or the police to provide evidence beyond a reasonable doubt before even starting an investigation!

That's not how this works. There's enough evidence to warrant an investigation, i.e. a recount, from what I've seen.

[KPN]

45. Yeah, as they say, who's checking

the checkers?

[TheKentuckian]

48. What evidence is that?

[Zeitghost]

57. State and local election officials across the country

Are following post election procedures that include verifying the accuracy of the results. So far nothing has been produced to warrant a further investigation.

[TheKentuckian]

63. The police aren't to randomly investigate and see if they find anything.

What is the specific reasonable suspicion?

This should not be flipped to having a reason to be suspicious but an specific and articulable suspicion.

[RANDYWILDMAN]

7. Mr. low energy

did not win all the swing states and the house and the senate(I was giving him the senate ) It's just too convenient

Come on....

[lees1975]

11. They had more of their people in county election offices in Pennsylvania than any other state.

And that was the state where the codes on the counting machines hadn't changed in 14 years.

But I sure don't want to be guilty of spreading conspiracy theories...

[Abnredleg]

20. PA is currently doing post election audits

If there are issues with the tabulators then the audit will flag them. That’s the nice thing about paper ballots - it’s easy to verify accuracy.

https://www.spotlightpa.org/news/2024/11/pennsylvania-election-audit-certification-recount-explainer/

[DetroitLegalBeagle]

83. If the swing rightward was isolated to the states he needed to win

That would look suspicious. The problem is, it wasn't isolated. Deep blue states swung right, by double digits in some states. Nearly every county in the country shifted right. They would have had to have cheated literally everywhere. And the possibility of that happening everywhere is basically zero.

[Kaleva]

8. Go ahead.

You don't need my permission.

[Blue_Tires]

9. That was their whole purpose...

[Ohioboy]

10. From what I've read it wouldn't even have to be a large investigation

just a few locations that had an unusual amount of bullet ballots. Why not check it out?

[Abnredleg]

19. Because the bullet ballot argument fell apart

Upon close scrutiny.

[AZ8theist]

60. Citation for your statement?

[Abnredleg]

65. Like others on this site

I went to the sites of the various BOEs and did some simple math. Turns out his numbers were achieved by taking the number of Trump votes and comparing it the number of votes in the GOP Senate race, which was less. This, however, ignores the issue of split ballot voting. When you do the calculations properly, which is to compare the votes of all presidential candidates and subtracting the number of all votes in the Senate race, you discover that the number of ballots just for the presidential race are 1-2% of total ballots rather than 6-7%. His cherry picking on data was picked up quickly and it was mentioned numerous times on DU.

Here’s a link to some numbers:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=19738572

[iemanja]

12. Yes, all the Democratic governors and election officials fixed the election for Trump.

Did you miss the fact we lost BLUE states? Your argument lacks logic.

The harm is it makes the Democratic party look like colossal idiots and costs hundreds of millions of dollars.

[brush]

13. Your first two paragraphs contradict each other.

Talk about an argument lacking logic.

The first graph is hard to believe. Why in the hell would Democratic fix the election for trump? Ridiculous.

[iemanja]

15. Exactly, it was meant sarcastically

The argument that the election was fixed depends on a conspiracy in which Democrats fixed the election for Trump. That is why it lacks logic.

[brush]

16. Learn to use the sarcasm gif then if it was meant to be sarcastic. We can read your mind.

[iemanja]

17. Okay

I thought it was clear, but evidently not.

[brush]

18. It reads as if you're confused as your first two graphs contradict each other.

[Think. Again.]

24. No, the argument ...

...that the election was fixed DOES NOT depend on a conspiracy in which Democrats fixed the election for Trump.

[iemanja]

25. Then explain to be how Trump fixed the election is Democratic states with Democratic governors

and Democratic election officials.

[Think. Again.]

30. I am not a digital forensics person...

....and, so far, we have not done any recounts to provide that information for anyone who is.

[iemanja]

31. So you have no evidence, but you thought you'd throw shit against the wall

like Sidney Powell.

[Think. Again.]

32. I am a citizen (among many) calling for investigations into suspucioys elections.

We've proven in 2020 that the U.S. is willng to do that.

[iemanja]

34. The Democratic Party or the Harris campaign

have the authority to call for an investigation and knowing that there is no way it will change the outcome of the election, they are not doing so. They have no obligation to bend to every person on the internet who can't deal with the election loss. It's over. Deal with it.

There is also the fact that the exit polls and results are consistent. There is nothing suggesting any malfeasance except denialists who can't face reality.

[jimfields33]

35. I think we only have until December sometime to get it done.

Better get to it quickly.

[Think. Again.]

37. December 11, I think.

[jimfields33]

40. Thank you. Clock is definitely ticking.

[bikes and bunnies]

44. Straw man. No one is saying that governors stole the election

They're saying the tabulators may have been hacked at the county level.
That would not require the involvement of governors.

Man, I hate straw man arguments.
So dishonest.

I just called Walz's office urging him to tell Kamala to request a recount.
(I don't have Kamala's number).

[TheKentuckian]

52. No YOU just made that argument, the general idea has be to sling shit in hopes something sticks.

Now that we have an allegation what supports it?

[iemanja]

56. Insisting that the election was stolen

requires that the Blue States were in on it. That means Democratic election officials. Voting machines are not connected to the internet. How could they be hacked?

It's not a strawman argument. It's pointing to the utter illogic of claiming the election was stolen in every single swing state in America, including blue states. It requires a conspiracy that reaches to 90% of the counties in America, because that is how many that Trump gained ground in. The argument makes no sense, and the fact that two weeks after the election people are still in denial is just sad.

Walz and Harris are never going to ask for a recount because they know there is no basis to it. The whole country would laugh at them if they did, and there are no signs they want to. The only people who want to are those who can't face reality.

[lees1975]

66. We lost battleground states with Democratic elected officials.

They only certify the vote. They didn't count them. So an audit wouldn't be a problem.

[Abnredleg]

77. Audit is part of the certification process /NT

[pnwmom]

14. Exactly. They trained us to defend our elections process no matter what, even though it's been revealed in court cases

that elections systems had been breached AFTER the 2020 election, putting 2024 elections at risk.

ATLANTA (AP) — An effort to access voting system software in several states and provide it to allies of former President Donald Trump as they sought to overturn the results of the 2020 election has raised “serious threats” ahead of next year’s presidential contest, according to a group of experts who urged federal agencies to investigate.

The letter sent by nearly two dozen computer scientists, election security experts and voter advocacy organizations asks for a federal probe and a risk assessment of voting machines used throughout the country, saying the software breaches have “urgent implications for the 2024 election and beyond.” The breaches affected voting equipment made by two companies that together count over 70 percent of the votes cast across the country, according to the letter.

“The multistate effort to unlawfully obtain copies of voting system software poses serious threats to election security and national security and constitutes a potential criminal conspiracy of enormous consequences,” the group wrote in a letter sent to U.S. Attorney General Merrick Garland, special counsel Jack Smith, FBI Director Christopher Wray and Jen Easterly, director of the U.S. Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency. “We must protect our most sacred tenet of democracy — the security of our vote."

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/voting-experts-warn-of-serious-threats-for-2024-from-election-equipment-software-breaches

[Hermit-The-Prog]

21. Recounts and forensic audits are needed, even if the outcome is unchanged.

[Think. Again.]

28. It's simple really.

[jimfields33]

36. Just need money.

Pennsylvania recount is a million dollars. But the state will cover that. The other 49 states will not cover costs but if someone paid, they might agree to recount.

[cilla4progress]

26. I

agree

[Sympthsical]

29. Spoonamore is straight up attacking Harris now

How are people so easily led into this? As absolutely-fucking-predicted, the pivot has been made and anger about the election will be wheeled on Harris and other Democratic leaders. Already his words and anti-Democratic rhetoric is being splattered all over DU.

How. Is. It. So. Easy?

When people complain about voters, "Oh, they're taken in by so much misinformation and disinformation cuz they're so dumb!" I want people to look real close at how grifters who make claims - without providing any evidence whatsoever - can get people to fall into these holes this easily.

And then maybe take a moment to think that it isn't always "other people" who fall for nonsense when it's nonsense they want to believe.

[Think. Again.]

38. Link please?

[Sympthsical]

43. It's the OP's link

Read through it. Do you think saying things like Harris will have the "rot of shame" on her if she doesn't buy into this stuff is acceptable rhetoric? They people will abandon and lose trust in Harris if she doesn't go along with Spoonamore?

He said this, addressing Harris:

"Shame will surround you like the stench of a rotting limb. I hope it wakes you in your sleep from time to time."

This is what's on DU now. And it was so easy for this grifter to manage. Took him ten seconds to spread this poison. And now we get to read it, because people keep bringing it here en masse (and with all these new faces to help)

[Think. Again.]

50. It will be a bad time for us all...

...yes, even for rightwingers.

[Think. Again.]

68. Since you have access to Spoonamore's latest substack post...

...and it is what you want to discuss, would you mind posting the text of his post?

I can not access the post on his substack for some reason.

[Sympthsical]

69. I will not post attacks on Democrats here

Much less VP Harris.

But plenty of others in the thread seem to have access to the post (and enjoy it if the recs are anything to go by). You can always ask the willing.

[Think. Again.]

70. Oh, okay...

Thank you anyway.

I'll disregard your references to his statements.

[Sympthsical]

73. You can easily find it

But not even making the attempt to find easily accessed information available within this thread from many different posters betrays an unwillingness at good faith efforts.

So what's the game then, if not good faith?

[Think. Again.]

75. As I explained....

I can not access the original source.

I wouldn't want to hold you to references on statements that you are not willing to provide originally sourced material on, so I will just disregard your refernces.

[Sympthsical]

76. PMed it to you

So now you don't have to disregard the attacks on Harris or pretend they weren't seen.

[Think. Again.]

81. Thank you, I won't copy/paste the whole thing here...

....since I can't verify the source (and I'm not sure of copyright implications), but a few things did stand out to me:

"Photos of fundamentalist Christian Activists posing at election offices wearing T-Shirts emblazoned with firmware passwords to access the tabulation software."

"Confirmation 6 of the 7 swing states used tabulators with firmware access codes built in - and unchanged since last election or longer. In one case 14 years."

"Multiple people sending me chapters of Kamala’s 2019 book, in which she details how vulnerable voting machines are, and even worries Russia will change an outcome.
...
It was dead on correct Kamala. You nailed it. The whole chapter lines up with reports and videos the whole security community has been involved in. Imagine my face while reading your discussion of a hacking demo, that … I helped develop. It’s great stuff. 100% correct in everything discussed,..."

And I certainly agree with Spoonamore's understanding of how dangerous this might be for anyone to challenge this particular election.

I certainly hope the people he mentioned in Pennsylvania, etc, do indeed find the strengh to stand up at this extemely important time in our nation's, possibly ending, history.

[yourout]

33. I seriously doubt it was stolen but I'm also ok with...

a bit of verification.
As the saying goes... "Trust but verify" .

[DiamondShark]

85. Democrats quoting Reagan...

I've seen it all this week.

[polly pureblood]

42. No, YOU broke it

and so you own it. You can't yell "election-denier" to the other side and then complain when the rules don't favor your position all of a sudden. This is why free speech is never one-sided...or shouldn't be. 🥳

[paparush]

46. Can anyone file a lawsuit with...

actionable evidence? If so, they should.

We could contrast that to the 60 lawsuits the Orange Prolapse filed after 2020 that were all thrown out of court.

[TheKentuckian]

49. What actionable evidence? No, probably not. The candidate has the standing.

Which I'm sure would be exercised if there was actionable evidence which there isn't.

[Blue Full Moon]

51. The republicans always cry about

Things they blame the democrats do but, it's always false and exaggerated. Then they do what they were hollering about because in their heads it makes it alright. So the big lie was so ludicrous it now causes a chilling effect to talk about cheating. They didn't spend all that time and money for nothing. The lies aren't to make people believe them as truth, but to obscure the truth so it won't be believed.

[Think. Again.]

53. The link is not coming through for me...

(I don't have a substack acct or the app)

Can anyone post the text please?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

59. I just looked at exit polls for PA, WI, and MI

The results are consistent with the exit polls. I can provide a citation if anyone wants.

[lees1975]

79. Really?

The results in all three of those states are quite close. It would take expert analysis to tell. I'm not seeing that it is conclusive enough to be 100% confident that there aren't discrepancies.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

82. The article suggested the results contradicted the exit polls. The exit polls show a small Trump advantage.

https://www.cnn.com/election/2024/exit-polls

Exit polls are rough checks on the actual results and in the current instance the latter mirror the former. Maybe chicanery occurred but proof of it is isn't to be found in exit polls.

[calimary]

71. I bet that was one of their motivations.

They have no shame, and even less integrity.

[Hope22]

72. It is our duty to know that our vote was protected.

If I knew what they were afraid of I would probably be afraid too. I’m sorry that we haven’t seen anything of VP Harris since November 6th. I’m assuming she will be able to speak after this deadline has passed. I don’t see a Dem being elected as President anytime soon. People fought for her, paid money every month, worked in local Dem offices and worked at polls despite the danger to make this happen. The very least we could have is an explanation of how the vote was protected and safely counted. Many of us watched as the President pulled out of the campaign even though he had stated to us multiple times that he was all in. It’s just not a good feeling that it happened on our watch.

[Sympthsical]

74. 85 recs and counting for a post loaded with anti-Harris attacks

I guess my hope is that people are just not reading things.

[enid602]

78. Kamala

I don’t believe that we know if Kamala has had time to thoroughly digest these theories. The letter was dated yesterday. Maybe she wants to see if the allegations have legs before she requests the recounts. I think she’ll weigh it carefully before making a decision.

[lees1975]

84. Well maybe not everyone sees it that way.

"anti-Harris" attack is a perspective term, not a proven fact. I don't see it that way. He's pointing out the urgency of getting something done he thinks there's evidence to do.

Harris is still asking for money. So it could very well be that she is planning to ask for recounts in some or all of the battleground states. Why not? What does that hurt? There was too much blabbering from Trump and the GOP to let this go without checking on it.

Personally, I'm not accusing anyone of anything, but as a registered Democrat who spend a lot of time canvassing for votes in Southeast Wisconsin and who gave over a thousand dollars to her campaign, I can certainly feel justified in asking that she do this.

[HereForTheParty]

80. Kamala has no use for our version of Mike Lindell

I'm glad she's ignoring this grifter. We'd look like fools and it would undercut our criticism of the Stop the Steal crap.