General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThe Atlantic: Pardon Trump's critics now!
The risk of retribution is very real. One hallmark of Trumps recently completed campaign was his regular calls for vengeance against his enemies. Over the past few months, he has said, for example, that Liz Cheney was a traitor. Hes also said that she is a war hawk. Lets put her with a rifle standing there with nine barrels shooting at her, he said. Likewise, Trump has floated the idea of executing General Mark Milley, calling him treasonous. Meanwhile, Trump has identified his political opponents and the press as enemies of the people and has threatened his perceived enemies with prosecution or punishment more than 100 times. There can be little doubt that Trump has an enemies list, and the people on it are in dangermost likely legal, though I shudder to think of other possibilities.
Biden has the unfettered power to issue pardons, and he should use it liberally. He should offer pardons, in addition to Cheney and Milley, to all of Trumps most prominent opponents: Republican critics, such as Adam Kinzinger, who put country before party to tell the truth about January 6; their Democratic colleagues from the House special committee; military leaders such as Jim Mattis, H. R. McMaster, and William McRaven; witnesses to Trumps conduct who worked for him and have since condemned him, including Miles Taylor, Olivia Troye, Alyssa Farah Griffin, Cassidy Hutchinson, and Sarah Matthews; political opponents such as Nancy Pelosi and Adam Schiff; and others who have been vocal in their negative views, such as George Conway and Bill Kristol.
The power to pardon is grounded in Article II, Section 2 of the Constitution, which gives a nearly unlimited power to the president. It says the president shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offences against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment. Thats it. A presidents authority to pardon is pretty much without limitation as to reason, subject, scope, or timing
Buns_of_Fire
(17,862 posts)I'd do it just to spite the bastard. But then, I'd have no problem with President Fatfuk holding his Cabinet meetings in cellblock D, either.
Think. Again.
(17,996 posts)tetedur
(1,081 posts)If any of these critics were taken to trial, evidence of why and what they said or did would be brought to a grand jury, a judge, and the trial jury. Let's have discovery. Let's call Trump to the stand to testify. Reasons for what they did would be argued in court. So let's have a legal airing of all their criticisms. While you might be able to get juries to convict a critic for being critical, can you get a jury to convict for a crime that does not exist?
dsc
(52,631 posts)you wouldn't be the one being charged.
tetedur
(1,081 posts)If the threat of prosecution for non-existent crimes silences people, Trump wins.
And yes it is very easy for me to say. I believe we still have freedom of speech. I did not know it was suspended for the sake of Trump's feelings. I didn't know we no longer had the right to call out crimes by Trump when they happened.
Baitball Blogger
(48,061 posts)tetedur
(1,081 posts)You remember them. Remember the 61 cases for election irregularities that they could get one judge to agree with their side.
While I would agree Trump does not believe in the Constitution, does that mean the Constitution is abolished?
When the firing squads line up people for criticism, they will have to have a lot of bullets. Lines will be long. And we will all go like lambs to the slaughter. I am old but when I stand in line I will advocate for everyone to make a break for it simultaneously.
maxrandb
(15,889 posts)Unless you think there is anything connected to the "rule of law" in these "revenge" prosecutions Donnie Dipshit fantasizes about.
Hell, he doesn't even need to bring actual charges.
The chilling effect is the point.
It's kind of cute that you still think we live in a democracy.
tetedur
(1,081 posts)There are Americans who would surrender ahead of time instead of fighting. Those who criticized Trump on TV were brave enough to do that. They thought they didn't have to acquiesce to Trump because the rule of law was still intact.
Legal fees? Trump used to not pay contractors for work they did because he knew it would cost them legal fees they couldn't afford. It's a good way to push people around. By 2019 he had been involved in 3500 legal actions against people. It is how he uses the courts to get his way.
Stormy Daniels owed $600,000 to Trump and a GoFundMe effort helped her out. So there are ways to fight.
I haven't been called cute since I was 6 so thanks for that.
liberal N proud
(60,950 posts)MadameButterfly
(1,710 posts)They might get Judge Cannon. They might just get investigated for years, incurring mounting legal debts. They might get audited by the IRS. Or they might get arrested and imprisoned with no trial.
Of course, if things are this extra-legal, I'm not sure a pardon would help them either. It might just imply they are guilty of something. Or Trump could just ignore it, like he'd have to ignore a bunch of laws and the constitution to go after these people.
But my worst and most imminent fear of a Trump administration is the targeting of Trumps critics, our best and brightest heroes, the people we need to keep democracy alive and to show future critics that they can resist and survive.
How we protect and support these people will determine whether our democracy survives. If America supports or goes along with or does nothing in the face of persecution for freedom of speech, then all is lost.
We have to have a plan. The pardon is one idea. But even if Biden does it, it is not enough. We need to appeal to military and law enforcement, to be unwilling to carry our illegal orders. Or we need a state by state National Guard activated to protect innocent people from illegal arrests. We need a pro bono legal army to represent anyone unjustly accused.
We need some way to keep our left leaning networks on the air when Trump tries to get them cancelled. This might mean replacing networks run by conservatives (like MSNBC) with real liberal owners. Just as Blue Sky is emerging as a Twitter alternative, we need a real solid station where the owners will not desert us. This is necessary for the press to publicize whatever is happening to Trump critics so they cannot be harmed without a mass public outcry.
Old Crank
(4,653 posts)Can you afford a lawyer that handles federal crimes?.
This is the equivalent of SLAP suits. I don't think you can get money damages for false prosecution.
tetedur
(1,081 posts)Can any one answer the question? Would the ACLU know?
https://firstamendment.mtsu.edu/article/slapp-suits/
According to the Institute for Free Speech, 33 states and the District of Columbia have passed anti-SLAPP laws of varying strength, leaving 17 states without anti-SLAPP statutes. ...
One prominent example of a successful anti-SLAPP defense came in 2018 when defendants won nearly $2 million in fees and costs from the late Nevada casino magnate Sheldon Adelson. The matter involved a claim by Adelson against the National Jewish Democratic Council during the 2012 election cycle for an online petition that stated Adelson personally approved of prostitution in his Asian casinos.
Conversely, efforts by Fox News to use New Yorks anti-SLAPP laws to help defend itself from defamation claims in lawsuits over its coverage and commentary on election fraud claims in the 2020 presidential election have been unsuccessful.
Congress has not enacted an anti-SLAPP law that would apply to federal court cases. According to the Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press, court decisions have been mixed on whether anti-SLAPP provisions set by states can apply to libel and defamation actions that land in federal courts.
Trump's DOJ is going to be mighty busy prosecuting Trump's critics. The military is going to be mighty busy courts martialing their own for following lawful orders. In the meantime, they will be rounding up and deporting 20 million aliens all while cutting the federal bureaucracy by two-thirds. My guess there will be new people to go after every day as time goes along.
Old Crank
(4,653 posts)With made up nonsense. We know this is garbage but he is likely to try to do this. This is to get people to shut up and not criticize the new king.
Judges will have to step up immediately and call any of these charges BS. Will they?
tetedur
(1,081 posts)Easterncedar
(3,531 posts)How can a person be pardoned in advance for something that isnt now a crime?
Handing out medals of freedom to Kinzinger et al. right now might be fun.
This ..
Pardon them for what crime? Criticism?
MadameButterfly
(1,710 posts)Hope it protects rather than putting a target on their backs, though
Seeking Serenity
(2,977 posts)Or something like that? (Except that President Ford preemptively pardoned Richard Nixon, and I don't remember that Nixon had to admit to anything or that anything happened in connection with the pardon, so I may just be blabbing without knowing what I'm talking about. )
UpInArms
(51,805 posts)I was wrong in not acting more decisively and more forthrightly in dealing with Watergate, particularly when it reached the stage of judicial proceedings and grew from a political scandal into a national tragedy. No words can describe the depth of my regret and pain at the anguish my mistakes over Watergate have caused the nation and the presidency, a nation I so deeply love, and an institution I so greatly respect.
Seeking Serenity
(2,977 posts)maxrandb
(15,889 posts)That orange fucksticks "enemies list" includes the 81 million that didn't vote for him in 2020, and the 73 million that didn't vote for him in 2024.
Remember that NYC Police Officer that failed to hold the door open for him during his felony trial? Yep, he'll even go after him too.
It's OK though. My MAGA loving 70+ year old emphesimic brother, with heart desease, has promised me that, if Donnie Dipshit uses the power of the state to come after me, or my gay child, he will be the first in line to defend us.
Martin Eden
(13,472 posts)That would validate Trump's accusations of treason.
bucolic_frolic
(47,005 posts)Would show what BS "retribution" is as a policy, a goal, a pet peeve, or whatever it is.
But I wonder if Trump could still sue them all privately, not using the government in a criminal charge, but privately.