If there was cheating in the last election...

[kentuck]

It would have taken place at a precinct or county level, in my opinion.

And it would only have happened in the battleground states. Because Trump would have wanted to guarantee the battleground states, if he had wanted to cheat. And he always wants to cheat, even if he doesn't have to do so. He and Rudy can laugh about it later.

But how would it have happened? And surely someone would have information to tell, in at least one of those counties? As far as we know, no one has come forward at this time.

Democrats do not wish to be like Rudy Giuliani and Trump lawyers in the last election - running to the court sixty times, without the evidence to prove anything. They could not prove it.

In my opinion, this is where the Democrats are, at present, with the questions about asking for a recount.

[Loupe Garoue]

1. Have you read Stephen Spoonamore's letter to VP Harris?

It lays it out pretty well.

https://open.substack.com/pub/spoonamore/p/duty-to-warn-letter-to-vp-harris?r=d569l&utm_medium=ios

[kentuck]

2. i saw something posted earlier about it...

The thoughts are out there.

[DiamondShark]

35. I am suspicious of republicans like Spoonamore.

[Jeebo]

76. I just read about half of the Spoonamore letter.

I'll read the rest of it later, but, well, holy shit. It reminds me of the 2000 election and all the shenanigans that went on in south Florida. How many ways are there that Republicans CHEAT? And they cheat out in the open, in full view. Gerrymandering. Holding a legislature's vote open until they can get enough of them to change their vote and then, the moment they have the lead, THAT'S when they gavel the vote closed. Robocalls to voters telling them that Republicans will vote on Nov. 5, and Democrats on Nov. 6. Changing the rules during the lame-duck session to take powers away from an incoming Democratic governor before he takes office. Figuring out ways to subvert the outcome of referendum elections. Voter suppression. Voter roll purges. Voter intimidation. I could go on and on and on, but it's is obvious to anybody with a functioning pair of eyes and ears that Republicans CHEAT. And if it's out in the open and obvious and plain for anybody to see, they'll do it anyway and then spin it and rationalize it and make silly excuses to try to make people believe it didn't really happen, nothing to see here, move along. So, January 6 was just tourists. It's so obvious that Republicans are willing to CHEAT to get their way, that it's easy to believe that they will also CHEAT in clandestine or hidden ways. Yes, I believe that there were shenanigans in this election. Did Harris read the Spoonamore letter? What was her response? What's she going to do about it? Has Biden read it? Is he going to do anything about it? Time's a-wastin'.

— Ron

[Groundhawg]

3. There is always a little cheating.

[Abnredleg]

4. Marc Elias says no fraud

[NJCher]

5. Mark did not address

Some of the points in Spoonamore’s letter. I have the highest respect for him, but he needs to explain the points about North Carolina having 11% bullet ballots. Read the section in Spoonamore that starts off with “The Tell” and goes to Hack Part 2. These kinds of ballots never reach that level. Tell me why they did in this instance.

Until Mark comes back on and says he has read Spoonamore’s Duty letter, I can’t accept this.

[Kaleva]

6. Has Spoonsmore's information been substantiated?

[NJCher]

7. Not sure

I will check into it.

Tell me the specific pieces of information you want to know about from Spoonamore’s Duty letter.

[Kaleva]

9. 11% of NCs ballots being bullet votes for one

The only sources I've seen that state that all link back to Spoonamore. I haven't seen a source that has independently confirmed that.

[NJCher]

12. It would seem that

is primary source information that could be obtained from the North Carolina elections office. When the offices are open. I will phone. I will also ask Spoonamore for his source and I will ask Brian why he did not ask this question.

[Kaleva]

13. Ok. Thanks!

My hat is off to you for making the effort!

[FBaggins]

46. You don't need to call an elections office to know that it's false

They report enough data publicly to know for sure.

NC reports 5,722,556 total ballots cast this year. 5,539,008 ballots have been counted in the state Supreme Court race (with a handful still out). Therefore it is impossible for there to be 350k ballots with just Trump votes.

https://www.ncsbe.gov/results-data/voter-turnout#general

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-elections/north-carolina-state-supreme-court-results

[Think. Again.]

27. Yes! We definitely need to confirm there is nothing wrong there!

[Kaleva]

45. True. Verifying Spoonamore's info is important

[Think. Again.]

47. Absolutely, the allegations in the first letter from the cybersecurity expert group must be carefully investigated also

[Zeitghost]

18. His numbers just don't add up

If there were hundreds of thousands of Trump only ballots, the vote totals would show far fewer votes in down ballot races and they don’t.

[Think. Again.]

28. Good point! Yet another reason to verify all this through recounts!

[FBaggins]

25. He doesn't need to

One is an expert on the subject and the other is a nut with woo conspiracy theories

Please note - Spoonamore tried the same nonsense in 2004. We then went on to win the next two presidential elections handily without ever doing anything about the supposed hackers. How did we miss it?

He claims to be a “lifelong republican”… but he ran against a Republican in 2016 as an independent and had to go to court over that because he had voted in the Democrat primary in the previous cycle.

[NJCher]

26. Provide links

Instead of just copying the same old same old that you hear from another poster. I’m tired of the name calling with no substantiation.

And yes, he does have to address it.

[FBaggins]

31. What an ironic response

Where are the links to something other than people parroting the woo in the first place?

But that’s how internet woo works. The lack of substantiation is actually proof of the conspiracy!

[NJCher]

33. You're calling

The Duty letters woo?

[FBaggins]

38. Sure. Or "entirely fabricated/unsubstantiated claims outside of reality "

If you prefer

[Think. Again.]

48. Oh, you mean like any allegation of a crime having been committed? Would those be woo's?

[FBaggins]

50. Any allegation? No

The ones he’s making in his letter? Yes

[Think. Again.]

52. You must stay very busy deciding all those 911 calls.

[DiamondShark]

37. Spoonamore claims to be a republican in the Nov-15-24 letter that is circulating.

[FBaggins]

40. As I addressed

Nevertheless… he has voted in Democratic primaries and run against a Republican himself… and accused them of stealing at least two elections over 20 years.

This pretty clearly refutes “lifelong “ or “Republican” if not both

Note - in order to run as an independent candidate in OH - you must be unaffiliated with either party (and certify same). Sonya’s he lying then or now?

[DiamondShark]

41. I'm a slow typer it seems.

[Think. Again.]

49. You mean like Liz Cheney?

[DiamondShark]

68. What about Liz Cheney? I don't follow.

[Think. Again.]

71. Doesn't she say she's a republican too?

I'm trying to figure out why you think Spoonamore's partisanship matters to basic cybersecurity practices.

[DiamondShark]

77. Oh, I thought Liz Cheney was doing something important and I missed it.

I don't know why you continue to pass over my other posts explaining my experience in securing our previous elections against bad actors.

Why does he think being a republican matter so much to him that he has to include it in his letter to Harris and Walz?

[Think. Again.]

78. I don't know, ask him?

[DiamondShark]

79. I think vetting the person you are promoting in these posts is the best path forward.

I also await any proof Spoonamore, or the other experts that are sounding the alarm, to post their proof.

I know I did my job to secure our elections against bad actors in the major elections 2016, 2018, 2020. And during the minor elections in the off years. My former co-workers do the same, past and present. I spoke with a former co-worker about 2022 and 2024, and she retired before the 2024 general election. She stated nothing major has changed since I worked there.

I Implore you to read my other replies I made to you Friday night, outside that, I don't understand why you are focusing me quoting Spoonamore's statement about being a republicans in his letter to Harris/Walz.

[Think. Again.]

81. If you are trying to convince me that...

...there is no way to hack digitally conducted elections, you are failing.

And again I ask you, why are you focussed on Spoonamore's party registration?

Is it that you DON'T trust him because of that? (understandable), or is it that you DO trust him because of that? (weird), or is there some other aspect I am overlooking that affects his conerns about anomolies in the election he has noticed?

[DiamondShark]

82. hmm...

https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/some-good-news-donald-trump-we-already-use-paper-ballots

[Think. Again.]

83. Paper ballots are tabulated by digital machines.

[DiamondShark]

84. I implore you to come work at any County Election Department...

I did.

[Think. Again.]

85. If I do, will that make all the digitized tabulation machines disappear or something?

[DiamondShark]

86. You would learn how we public workers secure our elections against bad actors.

Outside of working at a County Elections Department, you will have to trust the public workers and how we follow statutes and regulations on handling elections in our state.

I'm a member of the Democratic Party, and I know this may be hard to understand, we don't show partisanship in the office. Stephen Spoonamore made a point to call himself a republican when he wrote the letter to Harris and Walz.

[Think. Again.]

87. And I can teach what I do also....

...but that certainly doesn't mean you couldn't do it better than me.

Tell me again why you're so hung up on Spoonamore's admission of being a republican, I still don't see the connection.

[DiamondShark]

88. I concede the argument.

Please take Stephen Spoonamore, a declared republican, word over mine.

I am just a public worker, a member of the Democratic Party, that previously worked at a County Elections Department during the 2016, 2018, and 2020 elections.

[Think. Again.]

89. Cool, did you happen to know the election workers....

...who signed a paper to Congress falsly claiming they were official electors? They're famous!

[DiamondShark]

90. Please stop.

[Think. Again.]

30. After 2004 major security laws and procedures were put in place and thousands of voting machines were replaced.

[FakeNoose]

51. And yet, North Carolina just elected a Dem Governor

It's the "black woman" they voted against. Does that signal election fraud, or something entirely different?

[Cetacea]

73. Racism

And a horrible candidate.

[questionseverything]

8. He doesn't address the question of citizens being able to oversee their own elections

Mr elias can’t see what the computer software is doing any more than any other human being can.

Current election law doesn’t call for hand counting, which is the only way citizens can oversee the count. This situation is an
“Emperor has no clothes “ feel to it.

[Kaleva]

10. Michigan, controlled by Dems, prohibits hand counting of ballots

A Magahat township clerk and his deputy were removed from their election duties by Dem SOS Benson because they had said they intended on hand counting the ballots .

[stopdiggin]

19. the idea that 'hand counting' ballots is more accurate than by machine

is just flatly erroneous. (and I believe that has been demonstrated as fact and borne out in a number of studies and experiments - as well as in real life trials)

The machines themselves (like anything else) are not impervious to error - but they are demonstrably better at the job than humans. And in any event their tabulation and results can be (and are?) double checked against forensic method and hand count auditing at the completion of automated tabulation. (and I believe this is almost routine process as safeguard - in just about every instance of use? if your county or precinct officials are not doing this - then they are most likely not following either the rules they are given or best practices.)

Regardless - the notion that 'hand counting' ballots represents some kind of gold standard - just simply doesn't hold up to the facts.

There is a different argument to be made that paper ballots or some facsimile must be issued, either before or after tabulation, demonstrating a visual of the voter's actual choices (and then retained for a certain time) as safeguard against possible error. But that represents a different issue (IMO) than the one advanced above.

[questionseverything]

21. It's about the transparency

Hand counting a single race wouldn’t have the same error rate as counting an entire ballot with multiple questions

[stopdiggin]

24. I'm not real sold on the 'transparancy' argument either

Again (IMO) this is something that just sounds good - rather than actually working very well in practice. After all, in really practical terms, how many 'citizen observers' can we have hanging over the shoulders of election officials as they are trying to do their jobs? And doesn't that in itself introduce a certain amount of additional security risk and opportunity for either chicanery or error? (and we sure as hell don't want the boobs getting anywhere near the machines or any of the set-up!!) Then too, regardless the number of observers granted access - is that ever going to meet with the satisfaction of the boo birds and tin foil types?

But, again - different argument than the one where we originally jumped off the boat ...

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

[Think. Again.]

32. The obvious idea is that using 2 different processes to count the same numbers will expose discrepencies.

[stopdiggin]

57. which is where hand count 'audits' come into play

But 'hand counting' hundreds of thousands of ballots - each with multiple races, propositions and bond issues (and sometimes multiple picks within a race) - requires an army of human processors and then ballots being handled and counted several times (by different teams?) - shuffled from one station to another ....

And then how on earth do you audit or quality control THAT product or result .. ? It's a prescription for ... Well - let's just be kind and say inaccuracies, frustrations, skepticism - and then, almost inevitably, the same predictable calls of 'cheating! and fraud!'.

Because - to come full circle - the conspiracy boobs and wingnuts, are going to 'wingnut'. As they always do. And just as they are now .... - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

[Think. Again.]

58. Correct, discrepencies discovered during audits would then prompt full recounts to arrive at true results.

And true results are the whole purpose of any election in the first place.

[stopdiggin]

60. which is pretty much the system we have in place today ?

(with the possible exception of what a handful of inbred cretins in Buzzlebutt, AK are doing ?)

And yet - - Hear we are debating .... - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

[Think. Again.]

63. Except that "non-binding" audits would not necessarily lead to recounts if a candidate doesn't request that...

Here's a good source of info on the widely various state laws in the 7 swing states involving audits and recounts:

https://verifiedvoting.org/publication/recounts-audits-2024-verified-voting/

More info about all the states can be found in other sections of the verified voter site.

[stopdiggin]

67. total recounts are arduous and expensive

and should probably be reserved for instances where change in outcome appears at least plausible.
(as is mostly the case today) And not because Betty Blogger and Stevie Stats-boy are hopping up and down on the sidelines. Candidates and election officials are perfectly capable, and in far better position ...

But of course - that would kind of throw a monkey wrench toward the current, "Why won't they DO something?" "We need a RECOUNT NOW" crowd ...

[Think. Again.]

70. Democracy is arduous and expensive?

Whodathunkit?

[stopdiggin]

75. how profound !

- - - - - - - - - - - -

[JT45242]

34. Paper to spot check districts make sense...

If bad actors can hack banks, the power grid, businesses, and other government agencies why would we think that it is impossible to hack election software?

There certainly would be incentives for bad actors to put their thumb on the scales either by adding some bullet ballots or deleting some votes.
Unlikely to switch a Biden to felon, but Biden to blank could be attributed to incomplete bubbling.

High stakes tests like SAT and AP do spot checks of bubble sheets (when score sheets are paper), makes sense to do the same with elections.

[MichMan]

43. Arizona Republicans wanted to hand-count ballots. Then they saw the price tag -- and the errors.

This was just in one county

There were counting errors in 46 of 30,600 races on the ballots, as the team tallying the results of the election made mistakes. According to a report prepared for the Board of Supervisors, some of the observed errors included: bored and tired staffers who stopped watching the process, messy handwriting in tallies, fast talkers, or staffers who heard or said the wrong candidate’s name.

Each ballot took three minutes to count, Tempert said. At that pace, it would take a group of seven staffers at least 657 eight-hour days to count 105,000 ballots, the number of ballots cast in 2020. Mohave County would need to hire at least 245 people to tally results and have counting take place seven days a week, including holidays, for nearly three weeks. That estimate doesn’t include the time needed for reconciling mistakes, or counting write-in ballots, Tempert’s report added.

Tempert forcefully recommended waiting until Election Day to conduct the hand-count, because he feared results would leak out otherwise. But doing so would leave the county in a time crunch, too: The county would have just 19 days after the election to tally up the ballots, in accordance with state law on canvassing results.

The total cost for the staffing, renting for a large venue for the counting, security cameras, and other associated costs was staggering: $1,108,486.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/elections/arizona-republicans-hand-count-ballots-price-tag-errors-mojave-county-rcna97769

[stopdiggin]

62. It's a dumb assed idea. And it really ought to be put to bed. -(nt)-

[Cetacea]

72. And?

Doesn't matter. Harris is quietly raising money for recounts.

[Sympthsical]

11. Why did shifts happen in deep blue states?

People just ignore this question. If the swing states were hacked/fixed/rigged/whatever, then why were similar shifts towards Trump reflected in extremely blue states?

In 2020, Biden won California by nearly 30 points. Harris won it by 20.
In 2020, Biden won Illinois by 17 points. Harris won it by 10.
In 2020, Biden won New York by 23 points. Harris won it by 12.

These are significant shifts.

Was everyone hacked? All of the states, even the super blue ones? And the argument is that no one noticed any of it? The President, the Vice-President, and every leader in our party just somehow missed the entire country being rigged after they blitzed an ad campaign all year about how fortified and secure our elections are after making changes since 2020? Or they did notice, but don't care somehow?

No. Only random internet people know the real truth.

Honestly, I'm just waiting for the money asks to rev up. That's usually the next step in this process. Ask Jill Stein about that one.

[NJCher]

14. I've already rec'd money requests

but it's for recounts on Senatorial and House races that are tight.

[Sympthsical]

15. That I get

Those races really can boil down to some vanishingly small margins that warrant that kind of action.

But thinking we're going to somehow claw back 3.2% in North Carolina or 1.8% in Pennsylvania or 5.5% in Arizona or 3% in Nevada.

Those are some healthy margins. If that was rigged/stolen/hacked, someone in the Democratic party would have noticed immediately. Particularly in states with Democratic governors and Secretaries of State.

[NJCher]

17. if you think it's a matter of

individual clawbacks, I disagree.

It is more a case of finding out how they did it. That will unlock this mystery. You only have to find one case where they cheated. Republicans are boilerplate people.

Now, as for me, I have spent entirely too much time on this topic this evening. I have other things I want to do. I don't resent the time I spent on it, though. I learned a great deal.

[questionseverything]

23. Wisconsin is like 30,000 though, that's about 9 vote change per precinct

[NJCher]

16. This is a sweeping claim

The President, the Vice-President, and every leader in our party just somehow missed the entire country being rigged after they blitzed an ad campaign all year about how fortified and secure our elections are after making changes since 2020? Or they did notice, but don't care somehow?

This is not a realistic expectation to have. Also I think you exaggerating the claim.

Furthermore, I do not know of the campaign about secure elections. Can you point out an ad?

Go read the story posted from pnwmom: How team Trump/Musk spent $45 million on market tested fake ads

Harris & Walz did notice what was going on. They tried to get the ads that looked like imitations stopped. Google stopped only one. Facebook did nothing.

[Blue_Tires]

22. Because like I said earlier

We all grossly underestimated when push came to shove, just how many Dems didn't want a black woman leading the country...

But that still doesn't mean Donnie is 100 percent clean in all this...

[FBaggins]

29. And why were shifts LARGER outside the swing states?

There was a six and a half point shift nationally… but only about 2% in the most critical states.

Is he saying that the “real” results were a solid popular vote win by Trump but a narrow WV win by Harris?

[Blue_Tires]

20. Trump demanded Georgia keep recounting for TWO YEARS

So certainly we can ask for ONE, right?

[MichMan]

44. You don't just "ask" for a recount, you have to pay for it

The costs are pretty substantial.

For anyone interested in contributing, here is the info on the Harris Recount Fund. After the first $41,300 of each individual donation is directed towards the DNC, the recount fund gets to keep the next $3,300.

A portion of donations made to the Harris Victory Fund, a joint fundraising committee authorized by the Harris campaign, the Democratic National Committee and state Democratic parties, will be directed towards a recount effort, according to its fundraising page.

The fundraising page says that the “first $41,300/$15,000 from a person/multicandidate committee (“PAC”) will be allocated to the DNC. The next $3,300/$5,000 from a person/PAC will be allocated to Harris for President's Recount Account."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2024/11/11/kamala-harris-fundraiser-donations-election-recount/76195287007/

[Blue_Tires]

56. What happened to that billion they raised in 90 days?

I myself sent Harris a couple thou...

[MichMan]

59. I think they spent it all

[Blue_Tires]

61. No chance...

There's no way they spent it all and lost... They literally could have BOUGHT votes with it like Elmer did and won easily...

[MichMan]

65. What would be the logic in NOT spending it (and losing) ?

[Blue_Tires]

66. I don't know

But we could have spent a quarter of that amount and still gotten the same result at the polls...

[moniss]

36. Well put and I would point out that

a recount is a different matter than checking the validity of registrations. I'm not so sure those tons of new GQP registrations were all legit. Is it possible that nothing we needed happened? Not even one swing state? Yes but I have my doubts. I am particularly suspicious of the registrations/early voting/absentee aspects for example. It is quite odd to me that the GQP nearly all the way through the year has been screaming against early voting/absentee/drop boxes etc. and then all of a sudden they were urging their people to embrace it. Has an odd smell to it. Especially coming from these people.

[babsbunny]

39. If anyone believes psychics are real

This guy has a good record and is talking about what happened to the election.

&t=428s

[Emile]

42. Why would anyone think Republicans are capable of cheating 🤔.

[Ocelot II]

53. It's very hard to accept the reality that half of the country

preferred an elderly sex pest with 34 felony convictions to an accomplished woman as president. It's less painful to attribute the result to cheating, but maybe we need to face up to the fact that in this country any man, no matter how unqualified and degenerate, has a better shot at becoming president than any woman, no matter how qualified and capable.

[CrispyQ]

54. My take is that I wouldn't put it past them, but they are grossly incompetent & arrogant.

They would have left evidence or someone would have bragged. IIRC, winning all the battleground states has been done before.

I remember in 2020 some trumpers in disbelief that he lost cuz of the enthusiasm they saw at his rallies. I did the same this year. Despite the Harris campaign telling us it was a close race, I believed enthusiasm would translate into votes. I also put too much weight on Rosenberg's polling explanations & Selzer's Iowa poll.

Remember the Harris commercial where the two women are voting & the repub woman voted Harris & the message of the ad was "your vote is secret." Well, that could have happened in reverse. A lot of men going to Harris rallies with their wives/girlfriends/daughters & then in the privacy of the voting booth, still couldn't see a woman in charge. I will always believe that misogyny was the biggest issue with racism on top.

We lost & we're in for some rough times.

[remo ymor]

55. I think it happened even in red states

In TN I was expecting Harris to pull over 40%. The last I looked she only had 36%. I was not expecting her to win or anything but in fact do better than the last few elections.

[Joe_Gadway]

64. Kamala would not concede if there was large scale cheating

We trusted Kamala to run the country.
We should trust that she would not have conceded if there was any serious evidence of widespread voter fraud.
.
Right now our top priority should be to protect our rights.
One way to do that is to start making donations to the ACLU.
.
Second priority is to get Trump supporters out of office in 2026 and win back the White House in 2028.
One way to do that is to start making donations to the Democratic Party.
.
I am ready to fight.
But right now the best way to fight is with donations!

[Cetacea]

74. She couldn't have known at that point. nt

[MichMan]

80. Her concession from 11/6 is still up on the campaign website.

"While I concede this election, I do not concede the fight that fueled this campaign."

https://kamalaharris.com/