Should DU demand a recount?

[MadameButterfly]

I've copied a post below about a Daily Kos article re: cause for vote recounts. I wonder if we at DU could start a campaign to contact the appropriate people to insist on a recount. Maybe some pressure to act from voters will help get the ball rolling.

However I haven't been able to access the article to even know what is being done. I've tried opening an account to see if that gives me access but I'm not getting confirmation on the account. I'm not getting emails at all right now so I can't even determine whether the article is still available on Daily Kos. Someone else said they signed in but still didn't get access. Is there anyone able to access this article? If not, Is there a way to contact Daily Kos about this? If so, is there a way to get us access to the article?

Should we be contacting swing state Democratic governors, Kamala and Tim, Marc Elias about this? I tend to assume that the relevant people would be on something that is credible, but I'm not sure. Dems are so determined to not rock the boat over election results. Now is not the time to worry about appearances, we should make sure no stone is unturned. This might be our last chance to actually check the results of an election.




OP from ScubaSteve:

Rigged? Computer Security Experts Urge Harris To Demand Hand Recount
From the Daily KOS:

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2024/11/16/2286632/-Rigged-Computer-Security-Experts-In-Dual-Duty-To-Warn-Letters-Urge-Harris-To-Demand-Hand-Recount?pm_campaign=front_page&pm_source=latest_community&pm_medium=web

Much of the alarm revolves around so-called "bullet ballots". They are cast ballots with only one candidate in a single race selected and no down ballot choices made. Approximately 600,000 bullet ballot votes were logged for Donald Trump with no down ballot choices made in the seven swing states.

“In every swing state, but not in their neighbor states, voters cast 100x or more Trump bullet ballots than any prior election,” wrote Spoonamore Tuesday on “X”, a week after election day. “Where are these precincts? They are where to audit.”

North Carolina stands out as the “most extreme case” for suspect votes. More than 350,000 voters cast votes for Trump and no other race on their ballots, making up 11% of Trump bullet ballots. In all these cases, Spoonamore emphasizes, these suspect votes would have been electronically created with no paper record. Hence, the dire need for hand recounts in the seven swing states.

“It is very simple to prove this (fraud),” wrote Spoonamore in an “X” post. “Take the two most outlandish precinct results from any county and just hand count the ballots. They won't match the tabulation outputs.”
________________________________________________________________________

He has sent Harris a "Duty to Warn" letter stating she needs to question the outcome of the election. He says the presidential vote was willfully compromised. But hey, as he states pick 2 of the most ridiculous results and hand count them. If they match then no harm no foul, but if they are off by 100,000's...

[Blues Heron]

1. dont they compare the number of ballots to the final number of votes?

[Abnredleg]

3. Yes

Plus random audits.

[Think. Again.]

8. Most of those audits are non-bindibg on the final vote count.

Even if those audits showed major discrepencies, they can be ignored.

[MadameButterfly]

11. Then what is the pointof an audit?

And are the results of audits made public?

[Think. Again.]

16. Here is a map of which states hold their audits as binding on the outcome...

Good info can be found on this site that clarifies which audits can matter or not in which states, including swing states..

https://verifiedvoting.org/verifier/#mode/navigate/map/auditLaw/mapType/binding/year/2024

[Abnredleg]

13. Non binding does not mean ignore

As has been pointed out before. It just means that it triggers further action such as a full recount or a criminal investigation. It’s nonbinding because the audits are based on sampling so you have to take further steps to confirm any potential problems. The elections in the swing states are run by Dems except for GA so why would it be ignored? Either the state officials or citizens can take it to court and prevent certification if there was fraud. Don’t forget, courts have a lot of leeway to act in these situations.

[Think. Again.]

17. Actual information on binding audits can be found here:

https://verifiedvoting.org/verifier/#mode/navigate/map/auditLaw/mapType/binding/year/2024

[Abnredleg]

14. The results are made pubic as part of the certification process

Don’t forget that both parties will have observers reporting on the audit.

[Think. Again.]

19. The rules and regulations, and processes, for audits vary from state to state...

Here is some great, true, information on audits...

https://verifiedvoting.org/audits/

[stillcool]

20. thanks for the link...

good reminder for me to seek if I want to find.

[Farmer-Rick]

29. Why do we have to dig out this information????

Where are our Democratic leaders? Where is Harris? Where is Walz? Why is Joe playing nice with Trump?

We need leaders who will come out and explain this crap to us. If Trump lost, he would be out spinning the info for his minions. True it would be in the broken English of the elderly dementia patient. But Trump would be providing his explanation on what happened.

But our leaders seem to be avoiding us. We may not have been the 51% but we are a huge group of Americans that deserve answers from our leaders.

We don't deserve to be ghosted by Harris and Walz.

[Think. Again.]

34. I'd really like to see Marc Elias' take on all this, at the very least.

[Farmer-Rick]

50. I just feel abandoned by Democratic leaders

Yeah, this is how it normally goes. When you lose, you shut up and let the winner do his thing.

But this is not normal times. Communication, especially without corporate media, is cheap. Get on YouTube, or whatever platform you can get and tell us if the count is trustworthy. Tell us what to do to stop another fraud....if there ever is another election. Tell us what we can do to come together to help Trump's victims.

Tell us which of the mounds of project 2025's radical plans are mostly likely to be implemented and what we need to prepare for a fascist take over. How do we protect ourselves... I'm not talking violence. Just normal self defense ideas like get your passport.

Now is not the time to do business as usual. Now is not the time to abandon those who are in your side and ghost the 49% of Americans who voted for democracy.

[BComplex]

21. I don't want random audits: I want full audits, and hand counts of all the ballots in the states that trump won.

I'm willing to do whatever we need to do to satisfy ourselves about the true outcome. I do not believe for one minute the pablum that has been handed to us about trump's win. No way. No how. The entire nation was in shock when it was first announced. Since then it seems everyone has been lulled into believing that this was legit. It was not.

First, they blamed Black men. Then they blamed Latino men. Then they blamed single men who can't get a date or men who have masculinity issues. THEN, for fuck's sake, they said 10 million women who voted for Biden previously JUST STAYED HOME!!

I've got a fucking bridge to sell.

[Think. Again.]

36. I agree..

And it isn't just this election.

If we're going to use hackable digital machines for elections (because honestly, anything digital IS, by it's very nature, hackable), the very, very least we can do is veriify any outcomes with numerous, different methods, BEFORE we even think of calling the winners.

[MadameButterfly]

10. I can't respond to how this would have been done

and how it could be caught until I see the article. If Daily Kos is not crazy--usually they arent--they might have a case. But it's hard for us to organize anything based on an article we haven't read. I'm trying to find someone who knows how to get access to the article. Presumably members of Daily Kos because I'm not succeeding in signing up right now probably due to a separate technical problem.

The article (by Spoonamore) said the suspect votes are electronically created where there is no paper record. I don't know how you can compare number of ballots to number of votes or do a hand recount for that matter wiht no paper record. But Spoonamore says it can be done. However, if the election were hacked it would make sense that it happened in places with no paper ballot.

[BComplex]

22. Even if the Daily Kos article was bullshit, and maybe taken down from the site, or whatever, it still does not

mean that this election was legitimate. It. Was. Not.

[osteopath6]

32. The CISA does not support this conclusion

They did warn, however, on Nov/4 about:

"Russia is the most active threat. Influence actors linked to Russia in particular are manufacturing videos and creating fake articles to undermine the legitimacy of the election, instill fear in voters regarding the election process, and suggest Americans are using violence against each other due to political preferences, judging from information available to the IC. These efforts risk inciting violence, including against election officials. We anticipate Russian actors will release additional manufactured content with these themes through election day and in the days and weeks after polls close."

https://www.cisa.gov/news-events/news/joint-odni-fbi-and-cisa-statement-1

Russian actors undermining the legitimacy of our elections.. 🤔

[Think. Again.]

56. Please correct your title, the CISA has NOT made any statement about this conclusion.

[Think. Again.]

55. Here is a working link to the original Daily Kos article...

https://archive.is/YXLVg

[polichick]

2. Thank-you! Yes, we owe it to our children and the planet to make that demand.

[bucolic_frolic]

4. Do we have that power? Surely there would be allies in other venues

[Think. Again.]

6. We should use whatever power our voices DO have.

[Think. Again.]

5. And here is yet another letter sent to Harris from cybersecurity experts...

(I removed the citations and footnotes for clarity, but all verification of claims can be found in the original document here: https://freespeechforpeople.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/11/letter-to-vp-harris-111324.pdf)


The Honorable Kamala Harris
The White House
Office of the Vice President
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W.
Washington, DC 20500

Dear Vice President Harris,

We write to alert you to serious election security breaches that have
threatened the security and integrity of the 2024 elections, and to identify ways to
ensure that the will of the voters is reflected and that voters should have confidence
in the result. The most effective manner of doing so is through targeted recounts
requested by the candidate. In the light of the breaches we ask that you formally
request hand recounts in at least the states of Michigan, Nevada, Wisconsin, and
Pennsylvania. We have no evidence that the outcomes of the elections in those
states were actually compromised as a result of the security breaches, and we are
not suggesting that they were. But binding risk-limiting audits (RLAs) or hand
recounts should be routine for all elections, especially when the stakes are high and
the results are close. We believe that, under the current circumstances when
massive software breaches are known and documented, recounts are necessary and
appropriate to remove all potential doubt and to set an example for security best
practices in all elections.

In 2022, records, video camera footage, and deposition testimony produced
in a civil case in Georgia disclosed that its voting system, used statewide, had
been breached over multiple days by operatives hired by attorneys for Donald
Trump. The evidence showed that the operatives made copies of the software
that runs all of the equipment in Georgia, and certain other states, and shared it
with other Trump allies and operatives.

Subsequent court filings and public records requests revealed that the
breaches in Georgia were part of a larger effort to take copies of voting system
software from systems in Michigan, Pennsylvania, Colorado and Arizona, and
to share the software in the operatives’ network. According to testimony and
declarations by some of the technicians who have obtained copies of the
software, they have had access for more than three years to the software for the
central servers, tabulators, and highly restricted election databases of both Election Systems & Software (ES&S), and Dominion Voting Systems, the two largest
voting system vendors, constituting the most severe election security breach
publicly known.

Combined, their equipment counts nearly 70% of all votes nationwide.
Ninety-six percent of Arizona voters use Dominion and ES&S equipment; 100% of
Georgia voters vote on Dominion machines; 98% of Nevada votes on Dominion
voting machines and the remainder uses ES&S; 69% of Michigan voters’ ballots
are counted on Dominion or ES&S equipment; 89% of Pennsylvania voters ballots are counted on Dominion or ES&S equipment; ES&S counts 92% of North
Carolina ballots; and either ES&S or Dominion counts 97% of Wisconsin votes.

Possessing copies of the voting system software enables bad actors to install
it on electronic devices and to create their own working replicas of the voting
systems, probe them, and develop exploits. Skilled adversaries can decompile the
software to get a version of the source code, study it for vulnerabilities, and could
even develop malware designed to be installed with minimal physical access to the voting equipment by unskilled accomplices to manipulate the vote counts. Attacks could also be launched by compromising the vendors responsible for programming systems before elections, enabling large scale distribution of malware.

In December 2022 and again in 2023, many of us, concerned by the
security risks posed by these breaches, wrote to the Attorney General, FBI
Director, and Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency (CISA) Director outlining the security concerns and urging an investigation. Though there have
been limited, localized investigations,14 there is no evidence of a federal
investigation to determine what was done with the misappropriated voting
software.

Other relevant parties have pointed to the serious risks posed by the
misappropriation of the voting software. Before it was known that partisan
operatives had taken the software, Dominion Voting Systems objected vehemently to providing its software to the same partisan actors who ultimately got copies through voting system breaches, stating that to give its software to biased actors would cause “irreparable damage” to the “election security interests of the
country.”

Before the breaches in Georgia had been confirmed, the Georgia Secretary
of State’s chief information officer testified that having copies of the software
would provide a “road map” to the ways the system could be accessed. The
Georgia Attorney General opposed providing copies of the software to lawyers for the Trump campaign in a late 2020 election challenge, arguing that images of the voting system software would provide “the keys to the software kingdom.”

Notably, U.S. elections are potentially resilient because there are paper
ballots recording the voters’ intent in most states, meaning that even if the voting
system is at risk, the will of the voters can be determined reliably by recounting the
paper ballots by hand (although we are aware that not all paper ballots are verified
by the voter, and not all states take adequate care to protect the ballot chain of
custody.)

Audits will be conducted in some of the most scrutinized states, but in key
states they will not be conducted in a timely way that could reveal any concerns
with the vote count. In addition, in most states the audits are insufficiently rigorous
to ensure any potential errors in tabulation will be caught and corrected, and they
cannot be considered a safeguard against the security breaches that have occurred.
Specifically, Georgia’s audits are non-binding, and Michigan, Nevada and
Wisconsin laws do not provide that the audit be conducted before certification.
Therefore, it would be impossible to know for these critical states if the audits
uncovered errors or miscalculations before the state deadlines to seek recounts.

Among swing states, only Arizona’s audit laws ensure that, if enough
discrepancies are identified, the audit hand count will be expanded to correct a
potentially incorrect result. In other words, aside from Arizona, in contested states,
there is no legal mechanism for the audit to correct the outcome, no matter how
much error the audit uncovers. Given these facts, the only guarantee for rigorous,
effective audits of the vote in the swing states will be through candidate-requested
statewide hand recounts.
(emphasis mine)

The facts around the voting system breaches are not disputed; it is well-
documented that there were severe, multiple voting security breaches before the 2024 election. To ensure that voters can have confidence that the breaches in
security did not taint the results of the 2024 election, we recommend pursuing hand
recounts in, at minimum, Michigan, Nevada, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania as they
will provide insufficient safeguards against threats posed by the breaches of the
election software and will not provide important information in a timely way.

Thank you for your time and consideration of this important matter.

Sincerely,

Duncan Buell Ph.D.
Chair Emeritus — NCR Chair in Computer Science and Engineering
Dept. of Computer Science and Engineering
University of South Carolina*
David Jefferson Ph.D.
Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory* (retired)
Election Integrity Foundation*
Susan Greenhalgh
Senior Advisor for Election Security
Free Speech For People
Chris Klaus
Founder
Internet Security System*
William John Malik
Malik Consulting, LLC*
Peter G. Neumann Ph.D.
Chief Scientist,
SRI International Computer Science Lab*
John E. Savage
An Wang Professor Emeritus of Computer Science
Brown University*
*Affiliations are listed for identification purposes only and do not imply
institutional endorsement.

[Farmer-Rick]

28. Thanks

I was going to post that but you beat me to it.

I'm sorry but this election was very suspicious. It may not mean a win for Harris but we know Trump cheats at everything, even in a stupid f*cking game of golf. And we expected him to play fair this time?

Why didn't Harris and Joe have a plan for a recount? Or at least have a plan to address some security issues to the public so we can have confidence in an accurate vote count?

Then there was Starlink and Musk, and crashing satellites. Then there was Putin's ominous warnings about Trump's obligations to those who got him the win.

So where are our Democratic leaders? Why isn't Harris coming out and giving rallies and speeches?

If Dumpy Trumpy would have lost you know he would be out explaining things to his many MAGAts. Joe and Harris need to be supporting us. Not disappearing and playing along with Trump.

[Think. Again.]

30. I'm trying to tell myself...

...that Biden, Harris, and the Dem establishment actually ARE on top of this somehow and are working quietly to do whatever can be done about all this.

What I really don't want to see happen again is that we just throw up our hands and walk away, like we did in 2000.

[osteopath6]

35. Scary if true

I wonder why they've withheld this from the CISA and White House? Who told CISA.gov to lie like this?

"As we have said repeatedly, our election infrastructure has never been more secure and the election community never better prepared to deliver safe, secure, free, and fair elections for the American people. This is what we saw yesterday in the peaceful and secure exercise of democracy. Importantly, we have no evidence of any malicious activity that had a material impact on the security or integrity of our election infrastructure."

https://www.cisa.gov/news-events/news/statement-cisa-director-easterly-security-2024-elections

[Think. Again.]

39. When was that statement made? Was it before the evidence we're discussing surfaced?

[asm128]

48. Because, if it were compromised, it would make them look bad

And make the USA, the "land of the free" and the "beacon of democracy" look bad if we can't protect our own elections. To many, it's more important to look like we have perfect elections than to actually have them.

[MadameButterfly]

70. Thanks for posting this and the other letter in a separate OP

tilted
2 letters Requesting VP Harris to Request of Demand Recounts of 2024 Presidential Election

Everyone should read and act as you deem fit

[Conjuay]

7. Who would be paying for this,I wonder...

[Think. Again.]

9. The USA?

[MadameButterfly]

18. Who paid for Arizona nd 2x Georgia in 2020?

Demand the recounts, find the money

[Think. Again.]

12. Here is the article from substack...

https://democraticunderground.com/?com=post&forum=1002&pid=19728684

[2naSalit]

15. K&R

[CommonHumanity]

23. YES times 1000

Let's do it. Even though there are naysayers, there are some who support so let's get together to make whatever imapct we can. It needn't be under the banner of DU. Let's us, who want to do it, put our heads together and get started. I'll coordinate in whatever capacity I can. I want to act on this issue anyway and it would mean a lot to do it in collaboration with others. You could message my mail inbox if you want.

[BComplex]

24. Marc Elias swears that this election was legit. He is not accounting for the very specific targets that

the republicans were totally prepared for, and capable of, for this election.

Trump was absolutely correct when he told his rallies that they already had this election "fixed", and that they didn't need any more votes....two months ahead of the election.

[Think. Again.]

40. Do you have a link to the Elias statement?

I'm curious if he made that statement before all this evidnce surfaced.

[EdmondDantes_]

46. Or the guy who has been doing the actual work dismisses the conspiracy

There's nothing here. It's silliness from people who can't accept the election results. Assuming these single race votes are fake, why would these devious hackers not do the same for down ticket races? It would take minimal additional effort and provide significant benefits. It doesn't make logical sense.

[MadameButterfly]

72. We're supposed to prove fraud before

We can look for it.

[Meowmee]

25. I say yes

Are people really more afraid of appearances than of fascism winning and that murderer being back in power?

[kentuck]

26. Has Trump ever done anything in his life where he didn't cheat?

In one way or another?

Everytime, except for this election?

[GiqueCee]

27. "Every accusation is a confession"

Only a fool would believe for a nanosecond that Trump's puppeteers and supporters wouldn't lie, cheat, steal, and probably murder, in order to install the Gangrenous Boil on the Ass of Humanity as President-for-Life.

A recount is absolutely called for.

[dotsconnect]

31. no not yet

Have heard they don't want it made public yet. Seek answers directly from Harris.

[Native]

33. Here's the Substack link to his Duty to Warn letter

https://substack.com/home/post/p-151721941

[orleans]

45. thank you! nt

[Emile]

37. A party that gave us FAKE ELECTORS cheat?

No way!

[EX500rider]

38. Only 29 states have laws binding their electors to vote according to the popular vote

[usaf-vet]

41. Yes, demand a recount would be my vote as a DU member since 2008.

Yes, for demanding a recount would be my vote as a DU member since 2008.

[FirstLight]

42. I agree that we need to shift focus to LEGAL battles!

Let's make a list of who or what ogranizations/agencies to get ON it.

The only way we can attempt to slow the disaster down is to get in the ring and fight...and this is the only way to fight.

I dont know where we need to put the pressure on, but if we're gonna sit here and say "im not going down without a fight"...well, one person is easy to silence. But some big legal movement and some real discernment is a lot harder for them to beat down.

So I am asking those who are better versed in the process to help us get organized and push.
Why hasn't the FEC gone after some of the bullshit Musk was pulling...? Or the bullshit bomb threats etc...

I dont think this is in the DOJ wheelhouse, and we know Garland is useless in this. So let's make a list and get activated. I'm down with giving my time and energy to that.

Just no more fucking donations...and maybe that's another thing...tell the DNC et al we aren't giving them any more $$ till they learn how to actually FIGHT the fraud!

[muriel_volestrangler]

43. The quoted "350,000" figure for North Carolina seems wrong

From https://www.politico.com/2024-election/results/north-carolina/ , I make the total votes in the presidential contest 5,677,939, and for governor 5,589,815, which is 88,124 different.

I think that, before you start writing to Democrats, you need to have an understandable case with numbers you've checked, not just something copied from a website you can't access.

[Sympthsical]

47. And people can look up the numbers for themselves

At the North Carolina Board of Elections website.

https://er.ncsbe.gov/

I have no idea where this guy got 350,000 from. I've looked all over the place, and it's not anywhere to be found.

[Think. Again.]

61. The only reference I've seen was an estimate of 600,000 spread among the swing states.

[Think. Again.]

60. Here's access to that website...

https://archive.is/YXLVg

[bdamomma]

44. short and simple

yes

[Hope22]

49. Yes nt

[orleans]

51. how does du go about calling for a recount? nt

[MadameButterfly]

58. I think it would have to be a letter writing

campaign.

To do this in earnest it would help to get our facts straight and I'm seeing a lot of disagreement and different numbers, and just finally getting access to the articles. At what point we need to be reaching out to others I don't have an opinion yet. If this has legs, ultimately someone with more expertise than me has to investigate.

I have seen some election fraud theories debunked. If the article was withdrawn for innaccuracy, it should be stated rather than leaving us to investigate all over again.

Though I agree with the letter that states a recount is in order simply because there have been documente incidence of software breeches and the remains the possibility therefore of hacking. That article (in this thread) didn't cite evidence of fraud, just the possiblity. This is separate from the Bullet ballot isssue.

[orleans]

67. i sent a link to that substack "duty to warn letter - to vp harris"

about the undervotes in the swing states (bullet ballots) to my congressional rep and one of my senators, asking them to please look into this and get it into the right hands.

i also sent it to 15 social media folks on blue sky



i'm not in a swing state. don't know what else i can do.

[MadameButterfly]

68. Good. I'll send it and the other letter to some people

If we all do this it will at least get seen. And maybe a showing of numbers of people out there eager for a recount.

[electric_blue68]

69. I just wrote to Biden, and Harris for them to ask for recounts in the Swing States, and why.

[Mr.Bee]

52. If it were Kamala who had received millions of 'Bullet Ballots'

REPUBLICANS WOULD BE RUNNING AND SCREAMING UP AND DOWN THE HALLS OF CONGRESS AND ON FOXNEWSMAX 'STEAL! STOP THIS STEAL! RECOUNT! RECOUNT!
And that's a fact!
If there was no wrong-doing, there is nothing anyone should object to.
Let's prove it was a free and fair election!

[MadameButterfly]

57. are we talking about millions of bullet ballots

I had read a smaller number. Where are you getting millions?

[gopiscrap]

53. absolutely

[Think. Again.]

54. I was finally able to retrieve a non-paywall link to the Daily Koz article...

https://archive.is/YXLVg

[MadameButterfly]

59. Thanks!

[Blue_Tires]

62. All I'm saying is this...

We all know that any accusation from the angry orange idiot is a confession, right? So when he's screaming about rigged elections every hour of every day for 3 years, shouldn't we sit up and take notice?

Nevermind the fact that Trump OPENLY AND FLAGRANTLY TRIED TO CHEAT IN 2020 -- This is well documented in his own words... So now in 2024 when we ALL know he needed to win the presidency to have any chance of staying out of prison, we're supposed to honestly believe he's been on the straight and narrow path for the first time in his life?

[MadameButterfly]

65. Look at whatever Trump is accusing us of and that's what he is doing

Given that his whole campaign has been about planning the steal, while playing a lot of golf, do we think he wouldn't have explore every avenue including hacking voting machines? If it's possible as a couple of letters state, then I'll bet he tried it. Whether he succeeded is another story. What is maddening is we are supposed to prove the fraud before we can investigate the evidence.

And quelling our fears is not sufficient cause for a recount, even though this might be that last real election ever.

If the election was honest, Republicans shouldn't object to a recount. It would just cement their win and quash any accusations or conspiracies theories against them. But you know they'd fight it tooth and nail.

[Kaleva]

63. Nobody here can stop any other DUer from doing that

One doesn't need the permission of other members.

[MadameButterfly]

64. The only reason to work together is there is power in numbers

Of course people can do whatever they like individually

[Kaleva]

66. True but it just takes a few, or even one, to begin the process

[BoRaGard]

71. Absolutely

The Felon/Rapist has cheated at everything in life.

[JoeBydun]

73. recount!

a full recount is needed. I'm tried of all the "blueanon" attacks too. Are we really going to give our country over to fascism without at least a fight??