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Where the Democratic Party goes from here. Some important discussion, imo. (Original Post) elleng Saturday OP
my friend is currently ranting to me via text The Wandering Harper Saturday #1
'Right.' elleng Saturday #2
did you catch Jon Stewart's interview with The Wandering Harper Saturday #3
No. elleng Saturday #4
I found the whole thing interesting, The Wandering Harper Saturday #5
Thanks. elleng Saturday #6
Well said La Coliniere Saturday #28
+1000 wnylib Saturday #33
Your friend is an idiot. Just exactly what does HE or YOU think the republicans have Scrivener7 Saturday #7
you're not helping your case The Wandering Harper Saturday #9
Except the voters that apparently left the Democrats for Republicans didn't mind Republicans "talking to them like that" W_HAMILTON Saturday #10
I'm not sure what his registration is The Wandering Harper Saturday #11
You know what? I'm not making any case. Not to you or your friend. I don't give a shit. Scrivener7 Saturday #12
you're making an insulting assumption The Wandering Harper Saturday #13
And is now saying Democrats alienated the working class. And you're agreeing. Scrivener7 Saturday #14
you dismiss what I say as idiocy The Wandering Harper Saturday #15
Oh, dear. I didn't smile and nod when you said Democrats alienated Scrivener7 Saturday #16
a friendly advice: try asking a question that's not sarcastic sometime The Wandering Harper Saturday #17
When I want advice from someone spouting nonsense like Scrivener7 Saturday #19
How dare we talk to you like that. Trump is all our fault. yardwork Saturday #24
From Time magazine, September 2020: snot Saturday #41
I disagree. The party didn't alienate workers. yardwork Saturday #8
Even though I agree with you 100%, it's not worth the argument. Yavin4 Saturday #21
Reaganomics was ushered in under a solid Democratic majority house and senate The Wandering Harper Saturday #22
What specific piece of Democratic-majority legislation abandoned workers? yardwork Saturday #23
Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act of 1996 The Wandering Harper Saturday #25
lol! Republican majority Congress. yardwork Saturday #29
Your argument is that Democrats alienated the working class this year because in 1996 a republican congress Scrivener7 Saturday #39
if that had been in effect while I was growing up The Wandering Harper Saturday #26
You picked THE most infamous example of a REPUBLICAN attack on Americans. yardwork Saturday #30
did Clinton have to sign it? The Wandering Harper Saturday #32
Yes. I was there, paying close attention. yardwork Saturday #34
thank you The Wandering Harper Saturday #35
So was I, and I place the blame entirely on Republicans. yardwork Saturday #37
lol! Republican majority Congress. Newt's contract on America. yardwork Saturday #27
but we're diverging from the point I was tring to get at The Wandering Harper Saturday #36
The disinformation and lies ARE the problem. yardwork Saturday #38
"[I'm] contributing to" The Wandering Harper Saturday #40
I didn't watch it, but based on the summaries presented here, it sounds familiar. yardwork Saturday #42
I'm tired of arguing this point. Sooo.... Yavin4 Saturday #20
There's something very fucking wrong Blue_Tires Saturday #18
should be repugees have never been the friend of working people. GreenWave Saturday #31
1. my friend is currently ranting to me via text
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 03:57 AM
Saturday

about how the Democratic party alienated the working class and he's not exactly wrong

elleng

(136,071 posts)
2. 'Right.'
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 04:04 AM
Saturday

'Something very big was happening: a rebellion against the establishment.'

via Robert Reich.

*In 2016 and then again in 2024, Trump galvanized millions of blue-collar voters living in communities that have never recovered from the tidal wave of factory closings and loss of good jobs.
Big money in politics has been the root of the problem. Campaign donations from wealthy individuals and big corporations have turned the economy over to large corporations, CEOs, and billionaires.
Large corporations, CEOs, and billionaires have embraced global trade without giving blue-collar workers any means of coping with it.
They have turned Wall Street into a gambling casino without insuring the rest of America against the risk that those bets would turn bad.
They have allowed giant corporations to monopolize without giving workers the countervailing power to unionize.
This was the premise of Bernie Sanders’s 2016 campaign. It was also central to Trump’s appeal (“I’m so rich I can’t be bought off”) — although once elected he delivered everything big money wanted. And, of course, his promises were empty ones.
In the 2016 primaries, Bernie Sanders did far better than Hillary Clinton with blue-collar voters. He did this by attacking trade agreements, Wall Street greed, income inequality, and big money in politics. Sanders sought to remedy the disease of the Democratic Party — its abandonment of economic populism and of the American dream.
Now that Trump has been reelected and his Republican lapdogs are in control of the Senate and likely to be in control of the House, it’s critically important for Democrats, progressives, and everyone concerned about social justice to see where the anger in America’s heartland has come from, to channel it toward its real causes, and to commit to taking power back from the big corporations, CEOs, and billionaires.'

elleng

(136,071 posts)
6. Thanks.
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 05:27 AM
Saturday

Interesting. I have no idea about 'solutions,' and no idea how to identify 'the' problem(s.) May go back to Robert Reich.

Part of Reich's findings:

'Trump has been able to channel the intensifying anger of the white working class away from the real causes of working-class distress — away from the big corporations, wealthy individuals, and denizens of Wall Street whose money has rigged the game against average working people.
It was not the first time in history that a demagogue has used scapegoats to deflect public attention from the real causes of their distress, and it won’t be the last.
In 2016 and then again in 2024, Trump galvanized millions of blue-collar voters living in communities that have never recovered from the tidal wave of factory closings and loss of good jobs.
Big money in politics has been the root of the problem. Campaign donations from wealthy individuals and big corporations have turned the economy over to large corporations, CEOs, and billionaires.
Large corporations, CEOs, and billionaires have embraced global trade without giving blue-collar workers any means of coping with it.

They have turned Wall Street into a gambling casino without insuring the rest of America against the risk that those bets would turn bad.
They have allowed giant corporations to monopolize without giving workers the countervailing power to unionize.
This was the premise of Bernie Sanders’s 2016 campaign. It was also central to Trump’s appeal (“I’m so rich I can’t be bought off”) — although once elected he delivered everything big money wanted. And, of course, his promises were empty ones.
In the 2016 primaries, Bernie Sanders did far better than Hillary Clinton with blue-collar voters. He did this by attacking trade agreements, Wall Street greed, income inequality, and big money in politics. Sanders sought to remedy the disease of the Democratic Party — its abandonment of economic populism and of the American dream.'

La Coliniere

(858 posts)
28. Well said
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 02:48 PM
Saturday

I agree that the Democrats need to be the populist party of the working class, but I think those blue collar felon supporters won’t get onboard until the leopard bites their faces, no matter how strong and relentless the Democrats are in taking on the oligarchy. We also need a strong media presence to counter the overbearing 24/7 message of the right. Rich liberals desperately need to finance new radio and television stations or we might never be able to reach those we need to make positive change.

Scrivener7

(52,745 posts)
7. Your friend is an idiot. Just exactly what does HE or YOU think the republicans have
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 07:52 AM
Saturday

EVER done for the working class?

I'll wait.

And when the answer doesn't come, let's all remember the untold number of things the Democrats HAVE done for the working class.


9. you're not helping your case
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 11:53 AM
Saturday

nor the Democratic party's in talking to me like that
it is ALIENATING. Get it?
no republicans don't do shit,
but democrats at the very least need a better message.

W_HAMILTON

(8,493 posts)
10. Except the voters that apparently left the Democrats for Republicans didn't mind Republicans "talking to them like that"
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 12:15 PM
Saturday

This is the anti-PC -- excuse me, I suppose the new catchphrase is "anti-woke" now -- crowd that just loves them some strongmen. They love people that "tell it like it is" rather than the typical pandering politician.

So, in that vein, I wholeheartedly agree with the other poster: your friend is an idiot.

He apparently can't read and think for himself or he would clearly realize that Republicans are no friends of the working class and any actual gains the working class has made in recent years has come as a direct result of Democratic policies -- often fought against tooth and nail by Republicans.

So, it sounds like he is one of those types that have to learn through firsthand experience -- he has to touch the stove to find out it's hot because he ain't gonna listen to no one tellin' him what to do!

He's going to learn quite a bit over the next few years.

11. I'm not sure what his registration is
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 12:26 PM
Saturday

may very well be Democratic.
He voted for Harris because he knows what Trump is.
And he's pissed at the Democrats.
Both these things can be true

Scrivener7

(52,745 posts)
12. You know what? I'm not making any case. Not to you or your friend. I don't give a shit.
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 12:45 PM
Saturday

I can't do anything about people who are determined to cut their own throats. I've learned that lesson all too well.

You seem to think I owe you something about the opinion you are presenting. An opinion that, apparently, you agree with. Fact is, I don't owe you anything. If you're going to spout nonsense, the solution is not for me to change my behavior so you won't feel ALIENATED. Get it?

I presume you're an adult. If you or your friend are going to cut your own throats, and then when the bleeding starts, place the blame where it obviously doesn't belong, that's on you.

You know who isn't helping their case? Those who insist we smile and nod at this bullshit.

Scrivener7

(52,745 posts)
14. And is now saying Democrats alienated the working class. And you're agreeing.
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 12:51 PM
Saturday

That insults Democrats. That ALIENATES me from whatever the hell point you're trying to make.

15. you dismiss what I say as idiocy
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 01:00 PM
Saturday

like you're infallible
that's arrogant
not unlike the president-elect
and you're telling me I'm the one who's alienating

Scrivener7

(52,745 posts)
16. Oh, dear. I didn't smile and nod when you said Democrats alienated
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 01:08 PM
Saturday

the working class. Which opinion, frankly, IS idiocy.

So that makes you think I'm arrogant. I did search my soul over that, but it turns out I don't care.

What now? Am I supposed to beg you to stop feeling alienated?

Have a lovely day.

Scrivener7

(52,745 posts)
19. When I want advice from someone spouting nonsense like
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 01:19 PM
Saturday

"Democrats alienated the working class" I'll be sure to let you know. Till then, save it.

snot

(10,704 posts)
41. From Time magazine, September 2020:
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 03:26 PM
Saturday

"The Top 1% of Americans Have Taken $50 Trillion
From the Bottom 90% -- And That's Made the U.S. Less Secure":

"There are some who blame the current plight of working Americans on structural changes in the underlying economy--on automation, and especially on globalization. According to this popular narrative, the lower wages of the past 40 years were the unfortunate but necessary price of keeping American businesses competitive in an increasingly cutthroat global market. But in fact, the $50 trillion transfer of wealth the RAND report documents has occurred entirely within the American economy, not between it and its trading partners. No, this upward redistribution of income, wealth, and power wasn't inevitable; it was a choice--a direct result of the trickle-down policies we chose to implement since 1975.

"We chose to cut taxes on billionaires and to deregulate the financial industry. We chose to allow CEOs to manipulate share prices through stock buybacks, and to lavishly reward themselves with the proceeds. We chose to permit giant corporations, through mergers and acquisitions, to accumulate the vast monopoly power necessary to dictate both prices charged and wages paid. We chose to erode the minimum wage and the overtime threshold and the bargaining power of labor. For four decades, we chose to elect political leaders who put the material interests of the rich and powerful above those of the American people."

Working people used to see Democrats as their advocates, but too often Dems seem to have colluded in bringing about the changes that have facilitated the looting of the working class (see, e.g., the repeal of Glass-Steagall, the decision not to regulate credit derivatives, the bank bailout after the 2008 crash, et al.) I've felt frustrated that Dems haven't even been trying to make the case for helpful reforms. Why did we have to wait decades for Bernie Sanders to start talking about this stuff, before other Dems bothered even to give it lip service? Of course the Republicans are as bad or worse, but I think many voters are desperate for change; and to many, Trump seems prepared to disrupt both Dem and Republican establishments – that's part of how he's sold himself.

It's ironic and unfair that Biden probably tried to do more for workers than many other recent Dems, but I'm afraid the damage to the party's image had already been done, and Biden's efforts were too little too late to turn the ship around.

yardwork

(64,357 posts)
8. I disagree. The party didn't alienate workers.
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 10:04 AM
Saturday

Workers became convinced by Republican lies and propaganda that the Democrats abandoned workers. It's a Big Lie.

Yavin4

(36,386 posts)
21. Even though I agree with you 100%, it's not worth the argument.
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 01:24 PM
Saturday

Whatever the Jon Stewarts-DNC-consultants-Robert-Reich-MSNBC panelists want to do, let them do it. I'm all for it.

yardwork

(64,357 posts)
23. What specific piece of Democratic-majority legislation abandoned workers?
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 02:08 PM
Saturday

Be specific, please. Cite the actual piece of legislation, the year and who was in the majority, who proffered the bill, and exactly how it "abandoned workers."

I'll wait.

yardwork

(64,357 posts)
29. lol! Republican majority Congress.
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 02:49 PM
Saturday

27. lol! Republican majority Congress. Newt's contact on America.
2:48 PM
From Wiki:

Both chambers had Republican majorities for the first time since the 83rd Congress in 1953. Major events included passage of elements of the Contract with America and a budget impasse between Congress and the Clinton administration that resulted in the federal government shutdown of 1995 and 1996.

Scrivener7

(52,745 posts)
39. Your argument is that Democrats alienated the working class this year because in 1996 a republican congress
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 03:20 PM
Saturday

passed a law.

This seems - er - unserious and intentionally provocative in a non-Democratic way. If you catch my drift.

26. if that had been in effect while I was growing up
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 02:47 PM
Saturday

I would've been even more fucked.
And my mom worked her ass off

yardwork

(64,357 posts)
30. You picked THE most infamous example of a REPUBLICAN attack on Americans.
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 02:50 PM
Saturday

I remember it well. Newt Gingrich. And there's when AM hate radio went into full swing.

yardwork

(64,357 posts)
34. Yes. I was there, paying close attention.
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 02:56 PM
Saturday

He had to sign it. The Republicans shut down the government over and over as it was. Down ticket Democrats were vulnerable. We'd lost the House for the first time since the 1950s due to right-wing propaganda about welfare queens. The Republicans maintained a relentless witch hunt against Clinton.

35. thank you
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 03:00 PM
Saturday

I don't remember the details,
I was 23 trying to figure out how to put my life together.
I was very angry that it passed though

yardwork

(64,357 posts)
37. So was I, and I place the blame entirely on Republicans.
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 03:17 PM
Saturday

They were furious when Clinton beat George H, W. Bush, denying them a fourth Reagan term. They ramped up the disinformation machine - AM radio, Fox News - and went after the Clintons. The Republicans won big in the midterms and went right work.

Newt's Contract on America had three purposes (1) typical Republican cruelty to the poor, plus (2) a chance to blame the Clintons plus (3) launching the GOP disinformation machine to unite Republicans in righteous indignation, fed by lies, and confuse and divide Democrats.

With the influx of foreign billionaire funds made possible by the USSC decision in Citizens United, this strategy works better and better. It's pure evil.

yardwork

(64,357 posts)
27. lol! Republican majority Congress. Newt's contract on America.
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 02:48 PM
Saturday

From Wiki:

Both chambers had Republican majorities for the first time since the 83rd Congress in 1953. Major events included passage of elements of the Contract with America and a budget impasse between Congress and the Clinton administration that resulted in the federal government shutdown of 1995 and 1996.

36. but we're diverging from the point I was tring to get at
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 03:03 PM
Saturday

when I say alienated, I don't mean abandoned.
The interview with Sarah Smarsh I linked in reply #5
explains my position better than I can

yardwork

(64,357 posts)
38. The disinformation and lies ARE the problem.
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 03:18 PM
Saturday

Democrats fight for the workers but we lose against the disinformation machine. Which, I hate to say, you're contributing to.

40. "[I'm] contributing to"
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 03:21 PM
Saturday

I'll sincerely think on that.
I don't want to be a disinformation vector.
Specifically, do you regard the video I mentioned as disinformation?

yardwork

(64,357 posts)
42. I didn't watch it, but based on the summaries presented here, it sounds familiar.
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 03:26 PM
Saturday

Look, I understand where some people are coming from when they say the Democratic Party isn't far enough to the left for them. We can't expect Socialists to agree with Democrats all the time. I wish we had a parliamentary system here in the U.S. where more than two parties got seats in Congress.

Unfortunately, we have a binary choice. When Democrats are in power we can get things done. When Republicans are in power they wreck and steal. When Socialists do the Republicans' talking points, we lose.

Yavin4

(36,386 posts)
20. I'm tired of arguing this point. Sooo....
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 01:22 PM
Saturday

I say, "go for it". The Democrats can run however they want to run, wherever they want to run it. Do whatever you got to do.

Blue_Tires

(55,787 posts)
18. There's something very fucking wrong
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 01:15 PM
Saturday

When the Democratic party has to always reinvent the wheel and Trump literally ran the same campaign with the same message for nine consecutive years...

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