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PeaceWave

(946 posts)
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 08:40 PM Nov 15

45% of women voted for Trump. Yet, folks here are blaming men for Kamala's loss?

Seriously, where is the accountability? Exit polls show that Trump grabbed 55% of the male vote and 45% of the female vote. Meanwhile, Kamala received 53% of the female vote and 42% of the male vote. Had Kamala equaled Trump's share of her own gender's vote, she would have won. I don't know why Kamala couldn't crack 55% of the female vote. Her entire campaign was built around protecting womens' rights. If ever there was a candidate for President who should have appealed to the female voter, it should have been Kamala. But, this didn't happen. It would seem to me that this should be the real starting point for what went wrong - not just in this election, but in society at large.

As a man, I have often witnessed a handful of men who don't know each other enter a room and bond rather quickly over the most trivial of things - beer, sports, a TV show, video games, etc. And, that's not just true of American culture. In Germany, they have something called a Männergarten. It is quite literally a temporary activity space for men to hang out while their wives or girlfriends go shopping. The woman buys a ticket (good for two beers) for the man and drops him off at the Männergarten and she's good to go. The concept doesn't work unless men who don't even know each other, once left amongst themselves, are willing to get along.

In contrast, among all the women I know, none describe a similar ease of bonding with the women they have come across. Instead, they describe never ending competition over every little personal detail and a tendency to tear each other down. Maybe this willingness on the part of the American female electorate not to have as a default position a willingness to support another person of their own gender had something to do with what happened to Kamala. I don't know. But, it would seem to me that the answer to this question is the most important one to answer if the U.S. is ever to elect a female President.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c0lp48ldgyeo

130 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
45% of women voted for Trump. Yet, folks here are blaming men for Kamala's loss? (Original Post) PeaceWave Nov 15 OP
Lazy journalism using grossly oversimplified gender stats Fiendish Thingy Nov 15 #1
I took a Rutgers-Eagleton class on Woman & Politics and a solid 45% of women voted paternalistic since 1974. TheBlackAdder Nov 15 #12
Thank you for this response. It goes to what I'm getting at. How do we change this pattern? PeaceWave Nov 15 #14
It seems to be an immovable object. TheBlackAdder Nov 15 #17
And yet the data for subgroups of women shows otherwise Fiendish Thingy Nov 15 #34
45% is STILL a minority.. whathehell Saturday #89
Yes, but one that is offset by the larger gender bias men have towards women. TheBlackAdder Saturday #91
I read somewhere that Trump grabbed 55% of the male vote. taxi Nov 15 #2
Yes ... barely. AlanAdam Saturday #48
There is also the weird perception mr715 Nov 15 #3
Are we all on gender teams now? Ilikepurple Nov 15 #4
Really a lot of sexism in that article. travelingthrulife Saturday #65
The content of the op is simply the op's opinion, not the BBC writers'. spooky3 Sunday #116
Yes, how dare people blame men for Trump winning Wiz Imp Nov 15 #5
It's misogynistic to point out that fewer women voted for Kamala than men for Trump? PeaceWave Nov 15 #6
Are you serious? Wiz Imp Nov 15 #18
If by "this person" you are referring to me, I am not "twisting myself in knots" to do anything other than... PeaceWave Nov 15 #19
Why are you blaming women rather than focusing on this FACT? spooky3 Nov 15 #29
Okay, I'll bite. UniqueUserName Saturday #60
"they valued White privilege over women's issues" GreenEyedLefty Sunday #110
What? That statement is incorrect. yardwork Saturday #62
This message was self-deleted by its author Ponietz Saturday #54
Been a lot of that blaming shit going on lately... Wounded Bear Nov 15 #7
And yet, somehow, the candidate or the campaign team or the party elites and all of their decisions Seeking Serenity Nov 15 #8
I guess we don't want to win back any voters we lost to Trump SunImp Nov 15 #13
Come up with some meaningful strategies to do that and I'm right there with you... Wounded Bear Nov 15 #15
No, I'm saying the same thing SunImp Nov 15 #16
Run a middle-aged white straight protestant man Scrivener7 Saturday #82
Sadly, that's what we'll have to do. Thankfully, there are a few of them out there... Wounded Bear Saturday #92
Doesn't have to be white or Protestant GreenEyedLefty Sunday #111
I disagree. What we are seeing is contagious. Scrivener7 Sunday #112
I agree with this but my point was GreenEyedLefty Sunday #113
Definitely. Breaks my damn heart. Scrivener7 Sunday #114
I'd guess we do want to win back those voters.. whathehell Saturday #93
Yeah, but this is among the most moronic. Scrivener7 Saturday #80
Sickening and outdated stereotypes Walleye Saturday #90
If tRump is who men identify with...... ProudMNDemocrat Nov 15 #9
Again, 45% of women identified with Trump. My question is why? PeaceWave Nov 15 #10
Lack of self esteem perhaps? ProudMNDemocrat Nov 15 #11
misogyny is actually pretty prevalent with women Takket Nov 15 #21
Like all oppressed groups, women tend to internalize whathehell Saturday #55
Same as many of the factors associated with men's voting for him spooky3 Nov 15 #31
Their preachers told them to... Hope22 Saturday #51
very easy answer recovering_democrat Saturday #86
Oblivious to face-eating leopards perhaps? Zambero Saturday #87
Yes. I'm blaming men. Quiet Em Nov 15 #20
Because those guys are a holes. We get that. But, it's akin to... PeaceWave Nov 15 #22
Trump supporters and his campaign made it very clear that this was a movement against women Quiet Em Nov 15 #23
And, it doesn't deeply concern you that 45% of women STILL voted for Trump? PeaceWave Nov 15 #24
Of course I am. Quiet Em Nov 15 #25
Without discounting the existence of mental abuse that absolutely does exist... PeaceWave Nov 15 #28
No. It's not a reach. Quiet Em Nov 15 #30
An additional 2% of all the Men in every racial whathehell Monday #121
I don't get how "out of fear" works, they can vote for whoever & tell hubby the voted for the orangutang, right? EX500rider Saturday #66
Never mind wryter2000 Nov 15 #26
Women shop at grocery stores more than men at140 Nov 15 #27
Every woman in my extended family is the primary shopper. All voted for Kamala. PeaceWave Nov 15 #33
Your extended family is not representative of all women at140 Saturday #35
My Mom is an immigrant from Guatemala. Feel free to tell me more about my family. PeaceWave Saturday #36
Who said all Guatemalans are poor? at140 Saturday #75
Mass deportations and insane tariffs have a zero percent chance of not increasing food prices TheKentuckian Saturday #69
Where did you read I was offering tariffs as a solution? at140 Saturday #78
That was the alternative so I don't see any room for excuses. TheKentuckian Saturday #84
As we're hauled off to the gulag we'll be seen screaming at each other, "It's your fault!!!" jalan48 Nov 15 #32
One thing I know for sure Meowmee Saturday #39
I don't care for the blame games either Quiet Em Saturday #41
What's hard to understand? DiamondShark Saturday #37
" Instead, they describe never ending competition over every little personal detail and a tendency Quiet Em Saturday #38
This is what has been related to me by women both in their personal lives and in their corporate jobs. PeaceWave Saturday #44
Seriously? Quiet Em Saturday #47
Are you suggesting that female rivalry in the workplace isn't a thing? Or just ignoring it. PeaceWave Saturday #50
You need to make better female friends. yardwork Saturday #67
I'm straight, and I have found the same. Scrivener7 Saturday #83
I know! It's almost unbelievable. yardwork Saturday #88
It's a quote. DiamondShark Saturday #57
this is such bullshit. nt GenThePerservering Saturday #63
It's a quote from OP. DiamondShark Saturday #73
Have you ever heard of Internalized Misandry'? whathehell Saturday #76
I quoted OP and asked a question. DiamondShark Sunday #108
I replied to your question whathehell Sunday #109
It was sarcasm. I was +1 K&R PeaceWave's OP DiamondShark Sunday #115
Sure, whatever.. whathehell Sunday #119
Not my fault, your sarcasm detector is broken. DiamondShark Monday #123
There's a lot of blame to go around. BannonsLiver Saturday #40
It's mostly White xtian voters who are a larger group than others JI7 Saturday #42
At the end of the day, the question is this... PeaceWave Saturday #43
The last Democrat to win a majority of the white vote (men and women)? Dem4life1970 Saturday #45
Why are you bringing up race? This thread is addressing gender voting issues. PeaceWave Saturday #46
Numbers within the numbers..... marmar Saturday #64
Just being real, as I said. Dem4life1970 Saturday #105
45% of WHITE women with little or no college education tenderfoot Saturday #49
Compared to 69% of White MEN with little to no whathehell Saturday #59
He certainly got the poorly educated WHITE vote tenderfoot Saturday #71
It would seem so, although he did, whathehell Saturday #74
Many American Women Love Трамп MrWowWow Saturday #52
More American Men than Women love Trump.. whathehell Saturday #58
92% of black women voted for Harris. ismnotwasm Saturday #53
75% of black men voted for Harris bigtree Saturday #68
Yup ismnotwasm Saturday #70
The most vocal trump supporters I've met have been women. nt RandiFan1290 Saturday #56
Because more men than women voted Trump Ndp5 Saturday #61
Okay, we get it....you want the Democratic party Bettie Saturday #72
white women, to be precise. And white men. CousinIT Saturday #77
Oh, FFS. Scrivener7 Saturday #79
Hate and social media and ignorance trumps. So many people voting for Trump LizBeth Saturday #81
They are not finished counting ballots Farmer-Rick Saturday #85
Math that up. AkFemDem Saturday #94
Also- I love my women friends AkFemDem Saturday #95
Can you believe this shit? Next they'll be saying we're upset because our wombs are moving around. Scrivener7 Saturday #97
Maybe the reasons women vote for Trump and the reasons men do are not the same. milestogo Saturday #96
Sorry, but this guy is explicitly blaming women for Trump's win Wiz Imp Saturday #98
Wrong. I'm asking folks to be accountable, rather than simply blame one demographic group. PeaceWave Saturday #100
Your quote is a rimshot. Sorry. nt GenThePerservering Saturday #102
I blame all the blociheads who didn't vote against Trump. Ping Tung Saturday #99
Anybody notice that there are a lot threads lately masquerading as "election analysis," but which are just Scrivener7 Saturday #101
Yes, the BBC thing confused me. I think it was to find the stats? Ilikepurple Saturday #106
Yes hmmm Meowmee Monday #125
I blame everyone who didn't vote or voted for the Orange Abomination. LoisB Saturday #103
Last time I took math, back in the last millenium, 55 was more than 45. niyad Saturday #104
lol Meowmee Monday #122
" Instead, they describe never ending competition over every little personal detail and a tendency to tear each other do BlueWaveNeverEnd Saturday #107
As compared to Biden, Harris lost more men, more minorities, younger voters, and low-income voters Ms. Toad Sunday #117
How can you be content that "women held steady" when the opponent was a rapist? PeaceWave Sunday #118
I didn't say I was content. I was responding to your assertion that women, not men, are to blame. Ms. Toad Monday #124
Read my post again. Nowhere did I say that "women, not men, are to blame." PeaceWave Monday #126
What I see is a man trying to shift blame away from himself and onto women Ms. Toad Monday #128
We're at an impasse. You're willing to accept the status quo where "women hold steady." I am not. PeaceWave Monday #129
You are the one who chose the group. Ms. Toad Monday #130
Too much focus on abortion. confoosed Sunday #120
Women can be DemonGoddess Monday #127

Fiendish Thingy

(18,529 posts)
1. Lazy journalism using grossly oversimplified gender stats
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 08:47 PM
Nov 15

The devil is in the details- the details being Harris’ share of women’s votes broken down by age and race, and the turnout of women by age and race.

A few dozen more young women and black women per precinct in each blue wall state, and Harris would likely be president elect right now.

TheBlackAdder

(28,920 posts)
12. I took a Rutgers-Eagleton class on Woman & Politics and a solid 45% of women voted paternalistic since 1974.
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 09:32 PM
Nov 15

This is a number that only sways a percent plus or minus since 1974. This is one of the reasons why the ERA never passed. No matter what, 45% of women vote conservatively due to upbringing, family or religion.

This 45% is not for just this year but for a solid 40 years.

This is a good resource. https://cawp.rutgers.edu/

TheBlackAdder

(28,920 posts)
17. It seems to be an immovable object.
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 09:50 PM
Nov 15

Note: I updated my previous post with a link.


Legislation to address some of the gender biases helped to take the pressure off of the need to pass The ERA, so there isn't that force to get its passage. Feminism went through several stages, but the lens addresses parity of the genders. The lens of feminism for conservatives and the orthodox sees its objective as being a wife and mother. Those social forces are difficult to overcome.


Here's a post from 2022 where I wrote a similar post. There are a bunch of others too.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100217445416#post52


Here's a 2015 one discussing Phyllis Schlafly.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/1251443961#post30

Fiendish Thingy

(18,529 posts)
34. And yet the data for subgroups of women shows otherwise
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 11:40 PM
Nov 15

And the Pew exit poll analysis will almost certainly confirm that.

whathehell

(29,802 posts)
89. 45% is STILL a minority..
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 02:06 PM
Saturday

and in other news, what would you expect in a patriarchal society?..Like all oppressed people, women internalize the low esteem in which they're held by the Dominant group and that's projected, not only onto themselves, but onto others of their kind. It's called "internalized misogyny".

Apart from that, there are always people who vote against their own interests -- Consider all the Hispanic men who voted for Trump.

TheBlackAdder

(28,920 posts)
91. Yes, but one that is offset by the larger gender bias men have towards women.
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 02:20 PM
Saturday

I have no doubt V.P. Harris lost because of:

1) being a woman; 2) being half African-American; 3) being half Indian-American.

taxi

(1,944 posts)
2. I read somewhere that Trump grabbed 55% of the male vote.
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 08:49 PM
Nov 15

I also read that Kamala received 53% of the female vote.
It might take a little while for me to figure this out, but it at first seems like Kamala had the female vote and the shortcoming was by the male voters.
Like I said, I'm having a hard time figuring this out.

Ilikepurple

(108 posts)
4. Are we all on gender teams now?
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 08:56 PM
Nov 15

Asking for a friend.
Men instant beer buds. Women shop and cat fight. Thanks, I’ve been believing my deceiving eyes.

travelingthrulife

(710 posts)
65. Really a lot of sexism in that article.
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 10:11 AM
Saturday

Female here. I hate to shop and catfight, but I also don't like beer. What to do?

spooky3

(36,209 posts)
116. The content of the op is simply the op's opinion, not the BBC writers'.
Sun Nov 17, 2024, 01:48 PM
Sunday

The link goes to exit poll statistics only.

Wiz Imp

(1,831 posts)
5. Yes, how dare people blame men for Trump winning
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 09:01 PM
Nov 15

Just because men voted for Trump in huge numbers, it's not their fault Trump won. We should blame women, the majority of whom voted for Harris, for Harris loss.

What a load of misogynistic crap this is.

Wiz Imp

(1,831 posts)
18. Are you serious?
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 10:19 PM
Nov 15

This is explicitly blaming women for Harris loss even though far more women voted for Harris than men. What else would you call that? It's really rather sickening how this person twists himself in knots to blame women rather than men. Disgusting.

PeaceWave

(946 posts)
19. If by "this person" you are referring to me, I am not "twisting myself in knots" to do anything other than...
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 10:27 PM
Nov 15

point out a statistical fact - that Kamala received a smaller percentage of female votes than Trump received among male votes. How can you not see this to be of relevance to why we lost the election? Again, had Kamala received even the same 55% of female votes that Trump garnered among men, Kamala would have won. Figuring out why we didn't get that additional 2% (or more) of the female vote is how you win the next election where a woman is at the head of the ticket. And, please spare me the "there will never again be a female candidate for President." We're Democrats. We break down barriers. That's what we do.

spooky3

(36,209 posts)
29. Why are you blaming women rather than focusing on this FACT?
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 11:03 PM
Nov 15

(from CNN exit polls - and we know these are imperfect)

55% of men voted for Trump
45% of women voted for Trump

Why shouldn't Democrats focus on MEN and getting their support (as well as getting support from everyone else)? There are more potential votes to pick up from them than from women.

UniqueUserName

(273 posts)
60. Okay, I'll bite.
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 06:59 AM
Saturday

Because Harris ran specifically on gender inequality and women's rights as a major issue, it is significant that women did not see that as a driving force determining their vote.

If Harris had not made that an issue on which she was running, then it would, as you say, be misogynistic to consider the voter's gender or sex in evaluating the decision between Trump or Harris.

We can't assume anything about the women who voted for Harris regarding misogyny. We can assume for white women voting for Trump that they either did not believe Trump to be a misogynist or that they valued White privilege over women's issues. I would argue that women who voted for Trump are both racists and misogynists.

White men voting for Trump are probably both racists and misogynists. But not necessarily. White men could have been voting for Trump merely because it was in their best interests and not have considered the repercussions for anyone else.

yardwork

(64,377 posts)
62. What? That statement is incorrect.
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 08:40 AM
Saturday

You are really twisting yourself into a pretzel here.

If only women had voted in this election, Harris would have won in a landslide.

Response to Wiz Imp (Reply #5)

Seeking Serenity

(2,977 posts)
8. And yet, somehow, the candidate or the campaign team or the party elites and all of their decisions
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 09:14 PM
Nov 15

Escape even the merest hint of scrutiny.

It's the Principal Skinner meme in large print.

Wounded Bear

(60,691 posts)
15. Come up with some meaningful strategies to do that and I'm right there with you...
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 09:38 PM
Nov 15

otherwise it's just meaningless finger pointing.

Sure, we're all disappointed and angry right now, but what we're doing now is just further alienating those folks you want to "win back."

SunImp

(2,336 posts)
16. No, I'm saying the same thing
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 09:45 PM
Nov 15

Look at Dems all over pointing fingers at Latinos, Muslims, white woman, men and viciously degrading them. Most of the hate is directed at Trump voters, but people outside of political circles will see that. RW media will also see that and use it against us in a pac probably. Were supposed to be the party of level heads n inclusion. We need some self introspection & understanding right now

Scrivener7

(52,748 posts)
82. Run a middle-aged white straight protestant man
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 01:34 PM
Saturday

on the exact same platform as Kamala's. He'll win in a landslide.

We need to acknowledge the racism and misogyny lurking among our own, and among our allies.

I hate that we have to do it, but we have to do it, and it's all we have to do to win. (Unless of course things are rigged like Russia next time. Which is a distinct pissibility.)

But maybe when we do face that creepy fact, we can stop cannibalizing ourselves the way this and other articles are insisting we do.

Wounded Bear

(60,691 posts)
92. Sadly, that's what we'll have to do. Thankfully, there are a few of them out there...
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 02:20 PM
Saturday

that will make excellent presidents.

Of course, Hillary or Kamala would have been as well.

Scrivener7

(52,748 posts)
112. I disagree. What we are seeing is contagious.
Sun Nov 17, 2024, 09:32 AM
Sunday

Since the election, even here on DU, I have seen a resurgence of white men discounting the concerns of everyone else. One poster, for example, opined to much agreement, that no one cares about abortion because only a small percentage of the population gets abortions. That's just one example of the jaw dropping shit that is infecting even this place.

This very thread is all about how " dudes bond, bro, and women just tear each other down. That's why trump won!1!!" That's stunningly idiotic, and provably false but its getting lots of agreement and not a lot of pushback.

I suspect there are those on our side who know they will benefit over the years to come and are secretly not very bothered.

It will be worse when the next election gets here. If it ever gets here.

I agree that gender is possibly their strongest objection, but the others are there as well. We can't take any chances.

GreenEyedLefty

(2,099 posts)
113. I agree with this but my point was
Sun Nov 17, 2024, 09:35 AM
Sunday

That the electorate prefers a man in the White House. It's painfully obvious.

whathehell

(29,802 posts)
93. I'd guess we do want to win back those voters..
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 02:25 PM
Saturday

but simplisticly blaming it all on white women won't do that.

Scrivener7

(52,748 posts)
80. Yeah, but this is among the most moronic.
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 01:30 PM
Saturday

"Trump won because men bond and women tear each other down!1!!"

And someone took the time to copy and paste that shit to spread it around.

I despair.

ProudMNDemocrat

(19,061 posts)
9. If tRump is who men identify with......
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 09:25 PM
Nov 15

then I do feel sorry for them.

NO critically minded and thinking Woman is going to want them.

Really?

?itok=Y6vvF-JO

ProudMNDemocrat

(19,061 posts)
11. Lack of self esteem perhaps?
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 09:31 PM
Nov 15
?crop=5999,3359,x0,y0&width=3200&height=1792&format=pjpg&auto=webp

I don't understand either.

whathehell

(29,802 posts)
55. Like all oppressed groups, women tend to internalize
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 05:27 AM
Saturday

the low esteem in which the dominant group holds them..If you and those like you are treated like shit long enough, you start believing it..It's one of the most tragic aspects of oppression.



spooky3

(36,209 posts)
31. Same as many of the factors associated with men's voting for him
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 11:06 PM
Nov 15

--societal misogyny and racism
--low education (huge difference between college-educated voters and others--for whites and Latinos/Latinas)
--misinformation/disinformation (polls show Trump voters got many facts wrong)
--etc.

Hope22

(2,878 posts)
51. Their preachers told them to...
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 02:02 AM
Saturday

…the Catholic Church told them to……the minister told them to….they are idiots

86. very easy answer
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 01:47 PM
Saturday

women can advance, women can politic effectively, women can some day be President (as in other command positions in other countries, elected or selected in other means). We are our own best enemies arguing among ourselves mostly and men take advantage of it.

In Georgia I was able to vote at age 18 male or female. Every time I had a chance, I voted for a woman because the importance of female politics is critical to moving forward in this nation toward other command positions.

Again this year, I voted for every single woman on the ballot for any level of elected positions. None were just because "woman". ALL were because they were the BEST CHOICE of the candidates. This year's choices of women were not the best out there, but the men were worse. This is the truth, friends, (male and female,and "teach your children well".

I am 79 years old and I keep trying to vote for female candidates whenever I can. We need to start explaining to all citizens what we want in a candidate we would enthusiastically vote for: and then do it!

finally: this year, I was harshly criticized by many friends and others who were horrified that I did not support Trump and they did. I would not have supported Trump if he had been campaigning against any other candidate because of his "platform" and "criminal behavior".

Keep offering these messages if you are male or female to friends, family and even people who keep supporting Trump. We have to get this through the heads of our peers.
and also: "teach your children well". Maybe they will figure it out.

Zambero

(9,764 posts)
87. Oblivious to face-eating leopards perhaps?
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 01:54 PM
Saturday

Trump will visit bad shit onto all those other people. but he would never ever do anything to harm me!

Until he does, and when the wakeup call comes it will be too late.

Quiet Em

(923 posts)
20. Yes. I'm blaming men.
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 10:27 PM
Nov 15

Not all men. Some good men voted for Kamala. Voted for what is right. But other men, and the majority at that, were perfectly fine with voting for Trump because .....

PeaceWave

(946 posts)
22. Because those guys are a holes. We get that. But, it's akin to...
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 10:31 PM
Nov 15

Being in a fox hole and focusing on why the enemy is shooting at you instead of focusing on why some of the folks in your own trench aren't shooting back.

Quiet Em

(923 posts)
23. Trump supporters and his campaign made it very clear that this was a movement against women
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 10:46 PM
Nov 15

They didn't even try to hide that. And a lot of men voted accordingly.

So yeah, a lot of guys were a holes as you said. And here we are.

Quiet Em

(923 posts)
25. Of course I am.
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 10:53 PM
Nov 15

But what percentage of that 45% did it out of fear, or submission to their man? Men had no such fear. Some women probably did.

PeaceWave

(946 posts)
28. Without discounting the existence of mental abuse that absolutely does exist...
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 11:02 PM
Nov 15

All we needed was an additional 2% of women to vote for Kamala. It's a reach to suggest that the vast majority of women who voted for Trump did so "out of fear or submission to their man." That, in my opinion, is not being accountable for what actually happened.

Quiet Em

(923 posts)
30. No. It's not a reach.
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 11:06 PM
Nov 15

This is the environment that they have created. This is the environment that many women are now living in and with.

For most men the election did not have consequences. The same cannot be said for women.

whathehell

(29,802 posts)
121. An additional 2% of all the Men in every racial
Mon Nov 18, 2024, 12:25 AM
Monday

group who didn't vote for Kamala would have accomplished the same thing, so why do you keep harping on women?

EX500rider

(11,468 posts)
66. I don't get how "out of fear" works, they can vote for whoever & tell hubby the voted for the orangutang, right?
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 10:36 AM
Saturday

at140

(6,134 posts)
27. Women shop at grocery stores more than men
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 11:01 PM
Nov 15

That is why Kamala could not get 55% of the women's vote.
She campaigned smart. She was a great candidate. But she could not overcome food inflation.
Inflation was the main reason for her loss. More women shop at grocery stores.

PeaceWave

(946 posts)
33. Every woman in my extended family is the primary shopper. All voted for Kamala.
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 11:30 PM
Nov 15

That said, we all had long since accepted that higher food prices were essentially going to be the cost of our support for Ukraine. Money over blood.

at140

(6,134 posts)
35. Your extended family is not representative of all women
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 12:00 AM
Saturday

May be your family can afford higher food prices.

at140

(6,134 posts)
75. Who said all Guatemalans are poor?
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 01:23 PM
Saturday

There are rich people in every country. Even Guatemala, Venezuela, Zimbabwe have some very rich people.

TheKentuckian

(26,253 posts)
69. Mass deportations and insane tariffs have a zero percent chance of not increasing food prices
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 10:52 AM
Saturday

so good luck with that piece of rocket surgery.

In fact, what is it that dumb motherfuckers think Cantaloupe Caligula did or will do to keep prices low?

Weapons grade stupid.

at140

(6,134 posts)
78. Where did you read I was offering tariffs as a solution?
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 01:26 PM
Saturday

I have never been a fan of tariffs. My main point again is, for whatever reason the inflation spiked, it was the main reason for losing the presidential election. That is my honest opinion. You are free to disagree without getting angry.

TheKentuckian

(26,253 posts)
84. That was the alternative so I don't see any room for excuses.
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 01:40 PM
Saturday

Maybe one day I won't exist angry again, it is no longer a matter of getting that way and not directed at you in particular.

Wilfully making prices higher as the response to high prices is insanely stupid regardless of my emotional state though so I feel it a distraction.

Meowmee

(5,525 posts)
39. One thing I know for sure
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 12:42 AM
Saturday

None of this is my fault... I was trained from an early age to recognize fascism etc. and would never vote for it. I was polled by an R poll on the phone in 2016. She asked me tons of questions, one was- some voters change their mind would you ever vote for the psycho... I said emphatically, I will never vote for that lunatic under any circumstances.

Quiet Em

(923 posts)
41. I don't care for the blame games either
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 12:43 AM
Saturday

But I really don't get all the posts defending men for their role in it.

DiamondShark

(1,107 posts)
37. What's hard to understand?
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 12:31 AM
Saturday
As a man, I have often witnessed a handful of men who don't know each other enter a room and bond rather quickly over the most trivial of things - beer, sports, a TV show, video games, etc. And, that's not just true of American culture. In Germany, they have something called a Männergarten. It is quite literally a temporary activity space for men to hang out while their wives or girlfriends go shopping. The woman buys a ticket (good for two beers) for the man and drops him off at the Männergarten and she's good to go. The concept doesn't work unless men who don't even know each other, once left amongst themselves, are willing to get along.


In contrast, among all the women I know, none describe a similar ease of bonding with the women they have come across. Instead, they describe never ending competition over every little personal detail and a tendency to tear each other down. Maybe this willingness on the part of the American female electorate not to have as a default position a willingness to support another person of their own gender had something to do with what happened to Kamala. I don't know. But, it would seem to me that the answer to this question is the most important one to answer if the U.S. is ever to elect a female President.

Quiet Em

(923 posts)
38. " Instead, they describe never ending competition over every little personal detail and a tendency
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 12:41 AM
Saturday

to tear each other down"

That's not my experience.

This is your understanding?

PeaceWave

(946 posts)
44. This is what has been related to me by women both in their personal lives and in their corporate jobs.
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 12:57 AM
Saturday

PeaceWave

(946 posts)
50. Are you suggesting that female rivalry in the workplace isn't a thing? Or just ignoring it.
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 01:50 AM
Saturday
https://www.forbes.com/councils/forbescommunicationscouncil/2024/01/24/beyond-mean-girls-breaking-the-cycle-of-female-rivalry-in-the-workplace/

The cycle of female rivalry transcends time and space, with women in the professional sphere often viewing one another as obstacles rather than allies.

https://hbr.org/2020/04/its-time-to-break-the-cycle-of-female-rivalry

Female rivalry happens when a woman uses her power to keep another woman down, mistreats her, or competes unfairly.

https://ab-mediacommunication.com/2022/03/21/what-everybody-needs-to-know-about-female-rivalry-in-the-workplace/

70% of women have been bullied by a female boss.

yardwork

(64,377 posts)
67. You need to make better female friends.
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 10:46 AM
Saturday

As a lesbian, I find your characterizations laughable. I hang out with a lot of women who never tear one another down. We help each other, in ways large and small.

whathehell

(29,802 posts)
76. Have you ever heard of Internalized Misandry'?
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 01:25 PM
Saturday

No, neither have I, and that's because it's nonexistent in patriarchal society.

Internalized misogyny, on the other hand, is common for reasons that should be obvious...Women, like all oppressed people, tend to internalize the low esteem in which they're held by the dominant group. ..When people are continually treated as "less", they come to believe it, and project it onto themselves, and the others of their kind..It's one of the most tragic consequences of oppression.

whathehell

(29,802 posts)
109. I replied to your question
Sun Nov 17, 2024, 08:34 AM
Sunday

with an answer...For some reason now, it's you who seems to want to "air grievances".

DiamondShark

(1,107 posts)
115. It was sarcasm. I was +1 K&R PeaceWave's OP
Sun Nov 17, 2024, 01:16 PM
Sunday
I replied to your question
with an answer...For some reason now, it's you who seems to want to "air grievances".

BannonsLiver

(18,003 posts)
40. There's a lot of blame to go around.
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 12:42 AM
Saturday

They scared a lot of white women with the trans ad and the border stuff. White men voted for him in droves though.

JI7

(90,536 posts)
42. It's mostly White xtian voters who are a larger group than others
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 12:48 AM
Saturday

they vote Republican in huge numbers. If you count only white xtian men it's even larger.

PeaceWave

(946 posts)
43. At the end of the day, the question is this...
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 12:55 AM
Saturday

Next time we have a woman at the top of our ticket, would you rather try to persuade 2% more women to vote Democrat or 2% more men?

Dem4life1970

(432 posts)
45. The last Democrat to win a majority of the white vote (men and women)?
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 12:59 AM
Saturday

Lyndon Johnson in 1964. It hasn't happened since. That's right. 4 Democratic Presidents, 2 of them 2 term Presidents. Trump ran an overtly racist campaign and it worked. He was rewarded. Yes race was only 1 factor,
but let's just be real here.

marmar

(78,025 posts)
64. Numbers within the numbers.....
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 10:11 AM
Saturday

..... 92% of black women and 61% of Latina women voted for Harris. Perhaps your OP is too broad brush.

Dem4life1970

(432 posts)
105. Just being real, as I said.
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 07:50 PM
Saturday

It's a fact that White women went for Trump (not just

women
). If that fact makes you uncomfortable, it makes you uncomfortable.

tenderfoot

(8,725 posts)
49. 45% of WHITE women with little or no college education
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 01:40 AM
Saturday

There, I fixed your headine.

We know the answer now, and while conclusive demographic data will take months to emerge, exit polls in 10 historic battleground states indicate that women there favored Harris by 8 points overall—less than the margin for Hillary Clinton in 2016 or Joe Biden in 2020—resulting in an 11 point gender gap. (The exit polls’ ongoing inclusion of Florida, Ohio, and Texas might being warping our conclusions, but we don’t yet know.) Black women, Democrats’ most loyal constituency, voted for her in those states at a rate of 91 percent. Latinas, 60 percent. Young women, 61 percent. Other age groups, 49–54 percent. Harris won 57 percent of women with college degrees and 66 percent of women with even more education. But she lost white women with little or no college education by a mile. Only 35 percent of them supported her, and since those women constitute about one-fifth of the total electorate, they drove down her margins with women overall.

The questions that feel most burning right now—like what is up with those who voted against abortion bans but also for Trump, and which part of his gains can be attributed mostly to racism and/or sexism—are complex and will take more data and analysis to really understand. But it’s safe to say Trump’s margin of victory was powered by men, who, those same polls found, voted for him by 55 percent—a few points more than went for him in 2020. Trump looks to have made gains with almost every type of man, especially younger men and Latino men. (Despite a lot of pre-election angst, Black men overwhelmingly backed Harris, though Trump increased his margins there, too.) White men of all education levels went for Trump, but white men who didn’t go to college overwhelmingly so.

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2024/11/musk-trump-men-election-results-misogyny-sexism/

whathehell

(29,802 posts)
59. Compared to 69% of White MEN with little to no
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 06:23 AM
Saturday

college education who went for Trump.

There, I fixed your headline.

whathehell

(29,802 posts)
74. It would seem so, although he did,
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 12:20 PM
Saturday

by a smaller margin, get the educated white male vote as well. That contrasts to the majority of educated white females who voted for Kamala.

MrWowWow

(401 posts)
52. Many American Women Love Трамп
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 02:15 AM
Saturday

Last edited Mon Nov 18, 2024, 02:53 PM - Edit history (4)

It's those teeny tiny dollhands he's got. Likes to put them everywhere he does....
.
.Hitler had his harem of adoring female fans as well.
.
Many German women supported Adolf Hitler during his rise and rule due to a mix of propaganda, cultural norms, and policies that catered to traditional gender roles. The Nazi regime emphasized women's roles as mothers and homemakers, awarding honors like the Mother's Cross for having large families. This, along with extensive propaganda portraying Hitler as a paternalistic, charismatic figure who could restore Germany's pride, contributed to a significant following among some women. However, this sentiment was not universal, and women's attitudes toward Hitler varied widely, with some opposing or resisting the regime.

-ChatGPT

Ndp5

(70 posts)
61. Because more men than women voted Trump
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 07:28 AM
Saturday

And defections by men of color made up for Harris’ gains among women, more of whom voted for her than voted for Biden.

There is some serious blanket generalization and stereotyping going on here. I’m not saying all women are nice. Far from it. But personally, when I went from female-dominated environments in my youth to hanging out with a boyfriend’s all-male crew, I was struck by how often the boys made in-your-face mean jokes putting each other down. Maybe they wouldn’t have done it if there wasn’t a woman present, I don’t know. Not saying women never put each other down, but we are at least subtle about it. And let’s not even get into how easily some men will betray a buddy to pursue a romantic prospect.

I think both genders are competitive and mean to same-sex rivals, just in different ways. This notion that cat fighting lost Dems the presidency is deeply misguided.

If your point is that we need to address why some women voted against their own interests, I agree. But many Latino men similarly voted against their own interests. It’s a lack of engagement with trustworthy news sources and exposure to social media misinformation in both cases, among other things. It is not about those groups’ inherent gender or racial identities.

Bettie

(17,100 posts)
72. Okay, we get it....you want the Democratic party
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 11:35 AM
Saturday

to focus exclusively on the grievances of straight white men.

But, basic math: 45% is fewer than 55%. But sure, it's all the women's fault. You seem really invested in denigrating women.

And the non-white people, and the non-male people, and "the gays" and everyone except straight white men, they must be held blameless for everything in all circumstances.

CousinIT

(10,209 posts)
77. white women, to be precise. And white men.
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 01:26 PM
Saturday

Most women and men of color voted for Harris.

There was a slight shift of Hispanic men and black men to Shitler but the white men are the biggest problem (and the patriarchy-supporting women).

LizBeth

(10,822 posts)
81. Hate and social media and ignorance trumps. So many people voting for Trump
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 01:33 PM
Saturday

spend a vast amount of time scrolling social media and people are directed to like mind. All they are seeing is lies from Trump, and tons of people validating those lies. They lay in bed until late at night, night after night reading this shit and never do the research or look for facts or sees the reality.

We have a whole generation of younger men being fed by podcast on toxic masculinity that is essentially changing how they thinking into really weird shit, then they can't get a woman because it is dumb shit but they swear this is their reality.

So many of the Trump voters have no clue what the real election was about.

Farmer-Rick

(11,416 posts)
85. They are not finished counting ballots
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 01:47 PM
Saturday

At least that's what I heard yesterday.

Not sure I trust corporate media to do an honest analysis of the exit polls.

And when everything is counted. I want to know how many of them are bullet ballots and how many were counts sent through Musk's Skylink systems.

And why are we assuming Trump didn't cheat, when he cheats on everything even in a stupid game of golf.

AkFemDem

(2,177 posts)
95. Also- I love my women friends
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 02:48 PM
Saturday

and don't compete with them. They're the smartest, most interesting people I know. If the women you know decsribe other women the way you did, I'd seriously question just what kind of women you're choosing to spend your time with.

I say all the time, if anything ever happened to my husband- I'm marrying my girlfriends and living platonically happily ever after with them.

Scrivener7

(52,748 posts)
97. Can you believe this shit? Next they'll be saying we're upset because our wombs are moving around.
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 03:04 PM
Saturday

Like they did in the 1890s.

milestogo

(17,833 posts)
96. Maybe the reasons women vote for Trump and the reasons men do are not the same.
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 02:52 PM
Saturday

Similarly, the reasons women vote for Harris and the reasons men do may not be the same.

So nobody is blaming one or the other. It helps to take things apart to analyze them sometimes.

Wiz Imp

(1,831 posts)
98. Sorry, but this guy is explicitly blaming women for Trump's win
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 03:27 PM
Saturday

And he's complaining that people are blaming men. A misogynistic creep.

PeaceWave

(946 posts)
100. Wrong. I'm asking folks to be accountable, rather than simply blame one demographic group.
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 03:51 PM
Saturday

Women clearly didn't coalesce around one of their own. 45% of women voted for a rapist rather than another woman. That is appalling. And, it's worth asking why they did so. I know it's an uncomfortable subject. Nobody wants to look within their own circle and find fault. It's always so much easier to blame someone else and call them names - including "creep". That's the simple way out of any difficulty - wash your hands and claim you and yours had nothing to do with it. But, doing so is likely to result in the same outcome next time - since you will have done nothing to address the real source and extent of the underlying problem.

Ping Tung

(1,294 posts)
99. I blame all the blociheads who didn't vote against Trump.
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 03:41 PM
Saturday

Gender, ethnicity, religion, class, educational level, sexual orientation, etc is irrelevant.

Scrivener7

(52,748 posts)
101. Anybody notice that there are a lot threads lately masquerading as "election analysis," but which are just
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 04:08 PM
Saturday

blatant efforts to divide us?

This one says, "Democrats lost because men bond and women tear each other down!!!11!"

It is written to look like something from the BBC. But when you click the link, it brings you to a different article. This is just the OPs opinion, apparently. And it seems newly minted from 1950.

Things that make you go, "Hmmmm...."

Ilikepurple

(108 posts)
106. Yes, the BBC thing confused me. I think it was to find the stats?
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 09:16 PM
Saturday

The poster has been around or a while. I don’t think he’s trying to divide us, but rather convince us that women’s issues aren’t important to women? I agree about the 1950s thing. It seems for some here (not necessarily OP) the Democratic Party tent got large enough and civil rights got expanded enough at some point in the last century. This election results are being used in way too many topics to place blame on marginalized groups while we give a pass to white America as if we assume it’s invariably majority sexist or racist.

niyad

(119,942 posts)
104. Last time I took math, back in the last millenium, 55 was more than 45.
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 04:51 PM
Saturday

Has that changed in this new millenium?

BlueWaveNeverEnd

(10,199 posts)
107. " Instead, they describe never ending competition over every little personal detail and a tendency to tear each other do
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 11:57 PM
Saturday

careful with the stereotypes. men have a much much higher rate of violence against each other.

Ms. Toad

(35,523 posts)
117. As compared to Biden, Harris lost more men, more minorities, younger voters, and low-income voters
Sun Nov 17, 2024, 02:00 PM
Sunday
"First, Trump continued to eat into Democrats' share of non-white voters. Here's a fact to consider: Kamala Harris did better with white voters than Joe Biden did, but worse with nonwhite voters. Not only that, but the group that has shifted most toward Democrats since Trump broke onto the scene is white men. Democrats lost because everyone except for white voters moved in the direction of Donald Trump this cycle. How is that for a narrative buster?

Also, Trump outperformed his previous numbers with younger voters and low-income voters."


https://www.readtangle.com/final-2024-election-post-mortem/?ref=tangle-newsletter

You have to look, not at absolutes, but at who is being moved by the candidates from their traditional positions. Trump successfully won over men, minorities, younger voters, and low income voters. Women held steady. White men went increasingly for trump.

I won't even bother to address the misogyny implicit in that piece.

PeaceWave

(946 posts)
118. How can you be content that "women held steady" when the opponent was a rapist?
Sun Nov 17, 2024, 02:21 PM
Sunday

Last edited Sun Nov 17, 2024, 03:04 PM - Edit history (1)

Again, I know it's uncomfortable to address the issue. But, why 45% of women (regardless of age, race, religion or socio-economic class) would "hold steady" and vote for a candidate with a long history of sexual predation requires an explanation. I'm a man. I don't assume to know the answer. I'm only offering some of what I've heard from the women I know. One thing's for sure though - if every attempt at addressing the issue of why women voted the way they did (in this specific election where a rapist won) is going to be knocked down as misogyny, then that will be a massive lost opportunity to better not just our party, but maybe our society as well.

Ms. Toad

(35,523 posts)
124. I didn't say I was content. I was responding to your assertion that women, not men, are to blame.
Mon Nov 18, 2024, 12:40 AM
Monday

My point is that we aren't starting fresh every election. The vast majority of voters are tied to a particular party and, even if not to a specific party, to voting a particular way. That's why the polls ask party and, if you claim no party affiliation, they ask how you lean. Absolutes mean nothing, except among new voters. What is telling is how voters move, and women voters did not move toward Trump.

I would love for women to have moved away from Trump, but at least they didn't follow the men, minorities, low income, and youth, and shift toward Trump.

PeaceWave

(946 posts)
126. Read my post again. Nowhere did I say that "women, not men, are to blame."
Mon Nov 18, 2024, 05:19 AM
Monday

What I did say was the following...

Maybe this willingness on the part of the American female electorate not to have as a default position a willingness to support another person of their own gender had something to do with what happened to Kamala. I don't know. But, it would seem to me that the answer to this question is the most important one to answer if the U.S. is ever to elect a female President.

What amazes me is that a lot of people here have decided (wrongly) that this election required that either one group or another group was solely "to blame." That's nothing short of hogwash. The more I sift through the data, the more I see how clearly this was a group effort to screw up what should have been an easy win for our Party. Seriously, how did Kamala get 7% fewer young female voters than did Biden four years earlier? How is that even possible? But, what you (and others here) are very clearly iterating is that asking these kinds of questions is inherently misogynistic, that only one demographic group was "to blame" for this loss - that it was all mens' fault - and that no further introspection is necessary. Intertwined with this view is a complete surrender to the possibility of any woman ever being elected President in this country (despite the fact that female voters outnumber male voters), with people here openly saying "America will NEVER be ready for a woman." So, rather than women asking themselves what could they have done differently (independent of whatever the hell men do) , you'd prefer absolute gender defeatism? Seriously?

I'm a man. Maybe it's tough to hear these questions coming from a man. Maybe it's easier to name call and act like all the election data will "miraculously be gone" by April - as Trump said would happen with Covid. It won't be though. As with Covid, we've got a difficult four years ahead of us, during which time we have to live with our mistakes. And, for some of us, time is running short. My own Mom, whom I have mentioned several times on this board, is 90 years old. She was extremely invested in Kamala winning. She knows that it's not only possible but that it's long past due. Mexico, Brazil, Argentina, Nicaragua and Honduras have all elected female Presidents. So, if it's possible in all those countries, each of which prides itself on their machismo, why the hell isn't it possible in the U.S.? Because "it's all men's fault?" What a tidy excuse...that does nothing more than cover over some far messier issues that were apparently blown wide open during this election.

Ms. Toad

(35,523 posts)
128. What I see is a man trying to shift blame away from himself and onto women
Mon Nov 18, 2024, 10:27 AM
Monday

I countered that with facts which demonstrate that women held steady, while multiple other demographic groups shifted toward Trump. So if you want to shift blame away from your demographic, Trump, stop pushing it toward women, which is one of the few demographic groups which did not shift toward Trump.

Also, you will not find a single post of mine, ever, in a which I blamed a single demographic group of voters for this loss, it any other. So walk that tired dog elsewhere.

PeaceWave

(946 posts)
129. We're at an impasse. You're willing to accept the status quo where "women hold steady." I am not.
Mon Nov 18, 2024, 11:27 AM
Monday

You also seem willing to disregard the fact that young women did not "hold steady." They went with Trump in larger numbers in 2024 than in 2020. A disturbing outcome when you consider that - by the end of the campaign - Trump was routinely, in his rallies, referring to Kamala as "stupid." This was nothing short of public abuse on a national scale. And, despite this, women as a whole - as you say - "held steady." Women can choose to explore the issue. They can choose not to do so. But, whatever they do, it's going to affect all of us - men and women - the next time any woman runs for high office.

Ms. Toad

(35,523 posts)
130. You are the one who chose the group.
Mon Nov 18, 2024, 11:48 AM
Monday

Now that I've pointed out the flaws in that reasoning as to women, as a whole, you've shifted to a subset of women.

confoosed

(46 posts)
120. Too much focus on abortion.
Sun Nov 17, 2024, 11:50 PM
Sunday

There are a lot more women's rights issues that need attention. When you spend so much time on one, people who have others at the top of their list feel left out. We needed a broader message, but went too deep on topics that didn't resonate as much as we thought they did.

DemonGoddess

(5,123 posts)
127. Women can be
Mon Nov 18, 2024, 05:26 AM
Monday

just as misogynistic as men. In fact, they can be more so, when powered by jealousy. Which leads to spiteful actions.

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