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Letter from cybersecurity experts about hand counting and 2024 election anomalies (Original Post) Loupe Garoue Thursday OP
Trust these people Catbird Thursday #1
K&R Think. Again. Thursday #8
This message was self-deleted by its author Chin music Friday #148
Here is the text of the letter to VP Harris... Think. Again. Thursday #2
Thanks Loupe Garoue Thursday #3
Thank YOU! This is important stuff... Think. Again. Thursday #4
This message was self-deleted by its author Chin music Friday #149
This message was self-deleted by its author Chin music Friday #138
Every single state, heck every single precinct Tweedy Thursday #26
As these security experts explain... Think. Again. Thursday #30
In a close election I generally do. Tweedy Thursday #93
Oh yes, we must stay strong on all the other fronts... Think. Again. Thursday #94
There will be audits everywhere Tweedy Thursday #95
Oh, perhaps you didn't read the letter? Think. Again. Thursday #96
This message was self-deleted by its author Chin music Friday #139
This message was self-deleted by its author Chin music Friday #133
Raises hand... DiamondShark Friday #97
Wait, you had to make a FOIA request to see audit results??? Think. Again. Friday #111
I see you didn't read any other posts I made. DiamondShark Friday #114
This message was self-deleted by its author Chin music Friday #131
You can FOIA the ballots. DiamondShark Friday #236
Yes you can but it would be too late to change anything questionseverything Friday #238
Not my problem. DiamondShark Friday #240
This message was self-deleted by its author Chin music Friday #129
Did you read the letter? Farmer-Rick Thursday #58
This message was self-deleted by its author Chin music Friday #130
Chin music what does that mean? AkFemDem Friday #156
This message was self-deleted by its author Chin music Friday #158
Oh. why don't you just hit recommend like everyone else? AkFemDem Friday #161
Originality is a beautiful thing, these days. defacto7 Friday #184
This message was self-deleted by its author Chin music Friday #191
This message was self-deleted by its author Chin music Friday #160
You can hit "recommend" and your hit will- AkFemDem Friday #162
This message was self-deleted by its author Chin music Friday #164
No, I'm talking about the algorithmic push of a thread- AkFemDem Friday #165
This message was self-deleted by its author Chin music Friday #167
Okay so you do value the "recs" AkFemDem Friday #171
This message was self-deleted by its author Chin music Friday #172
This message was self-deleted by its author Chin music Friday #170
Chin Music is doing it the way it's always been done and defacto7 Friday #182
This message was self-deleted by its author Chin music Friday #210
You do not know that. travelingthrulife Friday #194
Huh? Tweedy Friday #232
Thanks Farmer-Rick Thursday #54
This message was self-deleted by its author Chin music Friday #140
Truth will out malaise Friday #109
This message was self-deleted by its author Chin music Friday #132
There is no point saving your ammunition for the bigger battles soon coming. magicarpet Friday #221
This message was self-deleted by its author Chin music Friday #226
This message was self-deleted by its author Chin music Friday #113
This message was self-deleted by its author Chin music Friday #128
K&R defacto7 Friday #183
This message was self-deleted by its author Chin music Friday #213
This message was self-deleted by its author John Shaft Friday #234
"We have no evidence that the outcomes of the elections in those states were actually compromised" speak easy Thursday #5
Yes, these security experts are requesting... Think. Again. Thursday #7
Those states are doing audits Abnredleg Thursday #9
One of the things they are pointing out dickthegrouch Thursday #11
Dems hold SOS office in 6 of 7 swing states Abnredleg Thursday #12
It goes further than just SOS's waving a magic wand to fix things... Think. Again. Thursday #15
Does no one trust Harris? AkFemDem Friday #159
Yes, these security experts address the audits in the letter.. Think. Again. Thursday #13
Point being that the facts will come out Abnredleg Thursday #17
I disagree, I think audits and recounts should be done... Think. Again. Thursday #19
They ARE doing vigorous verification Abnredleg Thursday #21
No, they are possibly doing belated audits... Think. Again. Thursday #22
Any discrepancies would be remedied Abnredleg Thursday #24
Pardon my American, but,... Think. Again. Thursday #25
Get used to the frustration Abnredleg Thursday #37
I think we are talking about 2 completely different subjects... Think. Again. Thursday #38
And why would we doubt the numbers? Abnredleg Thursday #39
I doubt the numbers for a few reasons... Think. Again. Thursday #41
This is the exact same thing that happened in 2020 Abnredleg Thursday #42
Hang on... Think. Again. Thursday #46
I was referring to the "concerns" you have Abnredleg Thursday #49
No, no, you said you answered all my questions... Think. Again. Thursday #50
I just clarified what I said Abnredleg Thursday #51
But you said you answered all my questions, where are the audit and recount results... Think. Again. Thursday #55
You're being deliberately obtuse Abnredleg Thursday #62
I have been painstakingly clear that I am only calling for verification of the first-count results... Think. Again. Thursday #67
This message was self-deleted by its author DiamondShark Friday #101
Swing state voter here. DiamondShark Friday #100
What county is delaying the audit? DiamondShark Friday #98
Amen to that ! Tweedy Friday #233
Most of Trump's complaints about voter fraud Farmer-Rick Thursday #78
What breaches are you referring to? Abnredleg Thursday #79
The security breaches Farmer-Rick Thursday #83
I was there in 2016... DiamondShark Friday #102
Read the article , these breaches happened this year questionseverything Friday #237
I don't need to "read the articles." DiamondShark Friday #239
Are you implying that my former coworkers are not doing their jobs? DiamondShark Friday #242
I don't know who or what you might be but no techie questionseverything Friday #244
As I have stated up thread. re-read the posts. DiamondShark Friday #245
Nah, not the same as MAGAt Dem4life1234 Thursday #88
you mean, run out the clock? stillcool Thursday #33
They dance around the subject... DiamondShark Friday #103
Absolutely the case. Bluetus Friday #230
The majority of the country votes with a paper trail Abnredleg Friday #231
A paper trail that you don't think any regular citizen should get to inspect questionseverything Friday #251
Both parties observe the count and audits Abnredleg Friday #254
No matter what you say, a thousand people could watch a machine spit out a results tape questionseverything Friday #256
Ever wonder why the campaign didn't question the outcome? Abnredleg Friday #258
You don't acknowledge that the system is non transparent or that American citizens have a right to oversee the questionseverything Saturday #269
Cool site! LeftInTX Saturday #277
when law enforcement investigates ANY POSSIBLE crime, speak easy Thursday #28
The difference being, we the American people have a right to oversee our elections questionseverything Thursday #32
They usually need some evidence that a crime was in fact committed before investigating Kaleva Friday #177
Would exit polling work for you?.. Think. Again. Friday #178
No Kaleva Friday #189
okay, well... Think. Again. Friday #192
I'll call the police when I have actually been mugged. Kaleva Friday #196
oh no no no no no no.... Think. Again. Friday #197
Where did I say that I needed ALL the evidence Kaleva Friday #198
on a side note... Think. Again. Friday #199
So what has the Harris campaign told you? Kaleva Saturday #268
Oh, I think you misunderstand... Think. Again. Saturday #271
You are still making these badly flawed analogies Zeitghost Friday #203
oh! You didn't read the OP, did you?!? Think. Again. Friday #205
We've been over this Zeitghost Friday #206
And I'll say it once again... Think. Again. Friday #217
A targeted hand count Loupe Garoue Thursday #10
There were security breaches Farmer-Rick Thursday #64
Well, when you investigate concerns THAT''S when you usually uncover whatever evidence there is!! ElementaryPenguin Thursday #92
There's this concept called probable cause Abnredleg Friday #202
Why do you have such a problem with transparency in our elections? questionseverything Friday #235
I like transparency but hate conspiracies Abnredleg Friday #243
If American citizens are not allowed to see the actual counting of votes, questionseverything Friday #246
Nonbinding does not mean ignore Abnredleg Friday #247
When kerry "lost" to bush the congressional black caucus questionseverything Friday #250
Unhappiness is not probable cause Abnredleg Friday #252
Sniff sniff - pee ewww G.O.P. BoRaGard Thursday #6
To my way of thinking, AFTER witnessing what TFG WILL DO in our countrys future bluestarone Thursday #14
I agree, I think that rigorous result verification.. Think. Again. Thursday #16
Kamala lost the election fair & square. Just as Trump did in 2020. Enough said. n/t Jacson6 Thursday #18
Are you a cybersecurity expert? Or have access to all of the voter data? lees1975 Thursday #27
Raises hand, Pick me, Pick me! DiamondShark Friday #104
This message was self-deleted by its author Chin music Friday #141
This message was self-deleted by its author Chin music Friday #117
But..but..but..that's a conspiracy asm128 Thursday #20
I agree, there's a reason why the concept of recounts is a thing. Think. Again. Thursday #23
This message was self-deleted by its author Chin music Friday #118
Ha! Yes... Think. Again. Friday #122
This message was self-deleted by its author Chin music Friday #123
THAT is the big question, although I suspect I know the answer..... Think. Again. Friday #125
This message was self-deleted by its author Chin music Friday #126
This message was self-deleted by its author Chin music Friday #144
This message was self-deleted by its author Chin music Friday #143
This message was self-deleted by its author Chin music Friday #142
I'd love to see a recount of some areas if possible Ilikepurple Thursday #29
Well said. Think. Again. Thursday #31
This message was self-deleted by its author Chin music Friday #147
Doesn't seem too promising Zeitghost Thursday #34
Correct... Think. Again. Thursday #43
You're putting the cart before the horse Zeitghost Thursday #53
Yes, there is "suspicion" of crimes being committed... Think. Again. Thursday #57
No, there is wild speculation Zeitghost Thursday #61
In response to your "wild speculation" claim, I guess it's okay to just post this again... Think. Again. Thursday #66
Right, they clearly state: Zeitghost Thursday #68
Right, they also clearly state at the very beginning of their letter... Think. Again. Thursday #70
Which is why I stated Zeitghost Thursday #73
But I have not made any claims at all.... Think. Again. Thursday #74
Yes you have Zeitghost Thursday #77
That's called an "analogy", spelled differently than "claim". Think. Again. Thursday #82
An analogy Zeitghost Thursday #85
The discussion was obviously about actively looking for evidence. Think. Again. Thursday #90
This message was self-deleted by its author Chin music Friday #119
I'm happy with that, why aren't you? NJCher Thursday #84
It seems to me Zeitghost Thursday #87
This message was self-deleted by its author Chin music Friday #120
And those with certainty that there wasn't fraud are... Think. Again. Friday #124
Yep tintinvotes Friday #173
These are cybersecurity experts, not the My Pillow guy. Loupe Garoue Friday #174
This message was self-deleted by its author Chin music Friday #152
Did those Security Professionals compromise our election? DiamondShark Friday #105
They sent the letter to Harris soandso Friday #110
Elias didn't seem to think bomb scares all over Democratic strongholds were a huge problem questionseverything Friday #255
This message was self-deleted by its author Chin music Friday #116
This message was self-deleted by its author Chin music Friday #151
Thank you! Think. Again. Friday #153
This message was self-deleted by its author Chin music Friday #154
Yep, just like real life. Think. Again. Friday #155
This message was self-deleted by its author Chin music Friday #163
I agree... Think. Again. Friday #166
This message was self-deleted by its author Chin music Friday #168
yup. Think. Again. Friday #169
audit Autisminsight Thursday #35
Where's the probable cause? Abnredleg Thursday #36
Correction... Think. Again. Thursday #44
You're trying too hard Abnredleg Thursday #45
(psssttt... some of the first-counts aren't even done yet and audits also take a little time) Think. Again. Thursday #48
And audit ANY/ALL ballots that ever got near Musk's Starlink system. Attilatheblond Thursday #52
These folks are serious. Catbird Thursday #40
There is a downside to extralegal steps Abnredleg Thursday #47
Usually that might be true Loupe Garoue Thursday #56
Why would improvements have to wait until AFTER a questionable election? Think. Again. Thursday #60
You're begging the question Abnredleg Thursday #65
Nonsense. Think. Again. Thursday #69
Some proof would be nice Abnredleg Thursday #71
I agree, let's go straight to recounts and get whatever proof there may be. Think. Again. Thursday #72
How about establishing the need for extralegal steps? Abnredleg Thursday #76
Oh, okay, I guess you missed this part of the thread, here ya go... Think. Again. Thursday #80
That letter is assumption piled on assumption Abnredleg Thursday #86
That letter is the entire premise of this entire thread. Think. Again. Thursday #91
We did in 2016. DiamondShark Friday #108
Not extralegal Catbird Thursday #75
A conspiracy? LiberaBlueDem Thursday #59
I agree, I don't think we should just "look the other way" either. Think. Again. Thursday #63
Do you not think that the Democratic party and Harris campaign soandso Friday #112
I'm sure they would.... Think. Again. Friday #121
This message was self-deleted by its author Chin music Friday #145
I don't think it should effect your opinion soandso Friday #263
I don't see why I appear "desperate" to you when all I'm doing is replying to other posters. Think. Again. Friday #265
Okay, then my bad soandso Friday #266
I believe they seriously don't want the first-count challenged... Think. Again. Saturday #270
I think some are afraid of looking or being "conspiratorial" soandso Saturday #272
And all I'm saying is... Think. Again. Saturday #273
I understand soandso Saturday #274
And my position throughout this entire thread is that... Think. Again. Saturday #275
Are you saying you want a full, nationwide, recount? soandso Saturday #278
That should be standard practice with anything as important as public office elections... Think. Again. Saturday #279
I had to look up bullet ballot soandso Saturday #280
I am referring to these "bullet ballots"... Think. Again. Saturday #281
Okay, I looked at some of that and he's speculating soandso Saturday #282
Yes, just as when any prosecutor brings any case to court.... Think. Again. Saturday #283
Belief isn't enough soandso Saturday #284
Ye, that evidence is "discovered" through investigations, like the recounts that are being called for. Think. Again. Saturday #285
Yeah... About that... I'm feeling left out, ya know. DiamondShark Friday #267
I hope so. Loupe Garoue Friday #185
This message was self-deleted by its author Chin music Friday #146
Delete SoCalDavidS Thursday #81
The party who gave us FAKE ELECTORS cheat, no way! Emile Thursday #89
Yep Meowmee Friday #99
This message was self-deleted by its author Chin music Friday #137
This message was self-deleted by its author Chin music Friday #136
VP Harris, Listen and Act. We Beg You!!! pat_k Friday #106
This message was self-deleted by its author Chin music Friday #135
pretty much what I said lapfog_1 Friday #107
This message was self-deleted by its author Chin music Friday #134
This message was self-deleted by its author Chin music Friday #115
This message was self-deleted by its author Chin music Friday #127
It is ABSOLUTELY essential that the Harris/Walz campaign audit votes, but the software needs to be forensically BComplex Friday #150
A simple hand count Loupe Garoue Friday #186
The number of socks I have to wash today is insurmountable. rzemanfl Friday #157
have you had to re-wash? stillcool Friday #180
Escapees bother me more, and they never escape in pairs. rzemanfl Friday #193
This message was self-deleted by its author Chin music Friday #175
You are talking to me, right? Loupe Garoue Friday #187
This message was self-deleted by its author Chin music Friday #190
How do I repost this? Loupe Garoue Friday #195
This message was self-deleted by its author Chin music Friday #209
How would a recount show if the systems were hacked or exploited? ecstatic Friday #176
a recount of the ballots, and whatever the term is stillcool Friday #179
Audits are already required by current election laws... Think. Again. Friday #188
There is nothing wrong with an audit recount Jarqui Friday #181
Audits are part of the certification process Abnredleg Friday #200
"Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain!" Think. Again. Friday #201
Finally, you said something accurate Abnredleg Friday #207
Maybe we should not even actually count the votes... Think. Again. Friday #218
They did count the votes Abnredleg Friday #220
I see, YOUR experience tells you the people who signed... Think. Again. Friday #223
Not to mention the rest of the election security community Abnredleg Friday #224
Oh, and you can speak for the entire election security community... Think. Again. Friday #225
Your diversion tactics aren't working Abnredleg Friday #227
Mmm, cool story. Think. Again. Friday #228
I accept your concession Abnredleg Friday #229
Hmm, yeah, how 'bout that. Think. Again. Friday #257
One concession is enough Abnredleg Friday #259
they're sure as hell not going to tell you NJCher Friday #261
Campaigns and parties leak like sieves Abnredleg Friday #262
show me NJCher Friday #264
My experience as well, but you fail to address any statements I make. DiamondShark Friday #248
How do we know that the Harris campaign hasn't picked up things with their own data? Jarqui Friday #222
Greg Palast thinks that provisional ballots were the key, with over 2 million tossed. TheRickles Friday #204
It's a bit late for this. Grins Friday #208
This message was self-deleted by its author Chin music Friday #215
How many votes were cast? How many were rejected? Kid Berwyn Friday #211
This message was self-deleted by its author Chin music Friday #216
for everyone on this thread lapfog_1 Friday #212
This message was self-deleted by its author Chin music Friday #214
Exactly why a hand count is the only way to verify vote totals Loupe Garoue Friday #219
98% of votes were cast by paper ballot. DiamondShark Friday #249
Here is an LA Times article from last March about Trump's team accessing voting machines Babajida Friday #241
Thank-you. This deserves its own thread. polichick Friday #253
Go for it Babajida Friday #260
K&R n/t Alice Kramden Saturday #276
Stephen Spoonamore was interviewed by Thom Hartmann yesterday Loupe Garoue Tuesday #286

Catbird

(731 posts)
1. Trust these people
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 10:13 AM
Thursday

These people know what they are talking about. If they say there is a problem, there IS A PROBLEM. I have worked with Duncan Buell. He has worked over many years on election integrity issues and has always made sure that his work in this area was nonpartisan. I don't personally know the others, but I am familiar with their work. Please encourage Kamala Harris to take their advice.

Response to Catbird (Reply #1)

Think. Again.

(17,926 posts)
2. Here is the text of the letter to VP Harris...
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 10:16 AM
Thursday

I removed the citations and footnotes for clarity, but all verification of claims can be found in the original document here: https://freespeechforpeople.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/11/letter-to-vp-harris-111324.pdf


The Honorable Kamala Harris
The White House
Office of the Vice President
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W.
Washington, DC 20500

Dear Vice President Harris,

We write to alert you to serious election security breaches that have
threatened the security and integrity of the 2024 elections, and to identify ways to
ensure that the will of the voters is reflected and that voters should have confidence
in the result. The most effective manner of doing so is through targeted recounts
requested by the candidate. In the light of the breaches we ask that you formally
request hand recounts in at least the states of Michigan, Nevada, Wisconsin, and
Pennsylvania. We have no evidence that the outcomes of the elections in those
states were actually compromised as a result of the security breaches, and we are
not suggesting that they were. But binding risk-limiting audits (RLAs) or hand
recounts should be routine for all elections, especially when the stakes are high and
the results are close. We believe that, under the current circumstances when
massive software breaches are known and documented, recounts are necessary and
appropriate to remove all potential doubt and to set an example for security best
practices in all elections.

In 2022, records, video camera footage, and deposition testimony produced
in a civil case in Georgia disclosed that its voting system, used statewide, had
been breached over multiple days by operatives hired by attorneys for Donald
Trump. The evidence showed that the operatives made copies of the software
that runs all of the equipment in Georgia, and certain other states, and shared it
with other Trump allies and operatives.

Subsequent court filings and public records requests revealed that the
breaches in Georgia were part of a larger effort to take copies of voting system
software from systems in Michigan, Pennsylvania, Colorado and Arizona, and
to share the software in the operatives’ network. According to testimony and
declarations by some of the technicians who have obtained copies of the
software, they have had access for more than three years to the software for the
central servers, tabulators, and highly restricted election databases of both Election Systems & Software (ES&S), and Dominion Voting Systems, the two largest
voting system vendors, constituting the most severe election security breach
publicly known.

Combined, their equipment counts nearly 70% of all votes nationwide.
Ninety-six percent of Arizona voters use Dominion and ES&S equipment; 100% of
Georgia voters vote on Dominion machines; 98% of Nevada votes on Dominion
voting machines and the remainder uses ES&S; 69% of Michigan voters’ ballots
are counted on Dominion or ES&S equipment; 89% of Pennsylvania voters ballots are counted on Dominion or ES&S equipment; ES&S counts 92% of North
Carolina ballots; and either ES&S or Dominion counts 97% of Wisconsin votes.

Possessing copies of the voting system software enables bad actors to install
it on electronic devices and to create their own working replicas of the voting
systems, probe them, and develop exploits. Skilled adversaries can decompile the
software to get a version of the source code, study it for vulnerabilities, and could
even develop malware designed to be installed with minimal physical access to the voting equipment by unskilled accomplices to manipulate the vote counts. Attacks could also be launched by compromising the vendors responsible for programming systems before elections, enabling large scale distribution of malware.

In December 2022 and again in 2023, many of us, concerned by the
security risks posed by these breaches, wrote to the Attorney General, FBI
Director, and Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency (CISA) Director outlining the security concerns and urging an investigation. Though there have
been limited, localized investigations,14 there is no evidence of a federal
investigation to determine what was done with the misappropriated voting
software.

Other relevant parties have pointed to the serious risks posed by the
misappropriation of the voting software. Before it was known that partisan
operatives had taken the software, Dominion Voting Systems objected vehemently to providing its software to the same partisan actors who ultimately got copies through voting system breaches, stating that to give its software to biased actors would cause “irreparable damage” to the “election security interests of the
country.”

Before the breaches in Georgia had been confirmed, the Georgia Secretary
of State’s chief information officer testified that having copies of the software
would provide a “road map” to the ways the system could be accessed. The
Georgia Attorney General opposed providing copies of the software to lawyers for the Trump campaign in a late 2020 election challenge, arguing that images of the voting system software would provide “the keys to the software kingdom.”

Notably, U.S. elections are potentially resilient because there are paper
ballots recording the voters’ intent in most states, meaning that even if the voting
system is at risk, the will of the voters can be determined reliably by recounting the
paper ballots by hand (although we are aware that not all paper ballots are verified
by the voter, and not all states take adequate care to protect the ballot chain of
custody.)

Audits will be conducted in some of the most scrutinized states, but in key
states they will not be conducted in a timely way that could reveal any concerns
with the vote count. In addition, in most states the audits are insufficiently rigorous
to ensure any potential errors in tabulation will be caught and corrected, and they
cannot be considered a safeguard against the security breaches that have occurred.
Specifically, Georgia’s audits are non-binding, and Michigan, Nevada and
Wisconsin laws do not provide that the audit be conducted before certification.
Therefore, it would be impossible to know for these critical states if the audits
uncovered errors or miscalculations before the state deadlines to seek recounts.

Among swing states, only Arizona’s audit laws ensure that, if enough
discrepancies are identified, the audit hand count will be expanded to correct a
potentially incorrect result. In other words, aside from Arizona, in contested states,
there is no legal mechanism for the audit to correct the outcome, no matter how
much error the audit uncovers. Given these facts, the only guarantee for rigorous,
effective audits of the vote in the swing states will be through candidate-requested
statewide hand recounts.
(emphasis mine)

The facts around the voting system breaches are not disputed; it is well-
documented that there were severe, multiple voting security breaches before the 2024 election. To ensure that voters can have confidence that the breaches in
security did not taint the results of the 2024 election, we recommend pursuing hand
recounts in, at minimum, Michigan, Nevada, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania as they
will provide insufficient safeguards against threats posed by the breaches of the
election software and will not provide important information in a timely way.

Thank you for your time and consideration of this important matter.

Sincerely,

Duncan Buell Ph.D.
Chair Emeritus — NCR Chair in Computer Science and Engineering
Dept. of Computer Science and Engineering
University of South Carolina*
David Jefferson Ph.D.
Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory* (retired)
Election Integrity Foundation*
Susan Greenhalgh
Senior Advisor for Election Security
Free Speech For People
Chris Klaus
Founder
Internet Security System*
William John Malik
Malik Consulting, LLC*
Peter G. Neumann Ph.D.
Chief Scientist,
SRI International Computer Science Lab*
John E. Savage
An Wang Professor Emeritus of Computer Science
Brown University*
*Affiliations are listed for identification purposes only and do not imply
institutional endorsement.

Think. Again.

(17,926 posts)
4. Thank YOU! This is important stuff...
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 10:21 AM
Thursday

...if we just allow this election to stand despite indications of malfeasance, then we would be complicit in the destruction of our own nation.

Response to Think. Again. (Reply #4)

Response to Loupe Garoue (Reply #3)

Tweedy

(1,134 posts)
26. Every single state, heck every single precinct
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 01:43 PM
Thursday

does audits of every election.

Heck, California is not done counting yet.

Our elections are secure. They were in 2020, too.

Think. Again.

(17,926 posts)
30. As these security experts explain...
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 02:16 PM
Thursday

...any audits that are done are not necessarily completed in time to do any good at verifying the first-count numbers, and the vast majority of post-election audits have no binding status to counter the first-count numbers anyway.

They are simply a legal routine that goes pretty much ignored.

Tell me, do YOU know what any completed state audit results were? Or where to even find them?

Tweedy

(1,134 posts)
93. In a close election I generally do.
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 06:53 PM
Thursday

This election was close-ish but not close enough to require automatic recounts unfortunately.

Imho time would be better spent pushing a constitutional amendment that corporations are not people.

Some effort reminding people why we want experts and not cronies filling our civil service.

The expert who saves us from a salmonella outbreak is not a political appointee on the take. The expert who predicts the path and intensity of a hurricane is not a maga republican. The expert who cures cancer probably with a vaccine will not be a Junior Kennedy anti-science appointee.

I understand the desire to thwart the incoming insanity. Mr. Trump’s win is based on lies and an admitted repugnance to fact checking already. Inform some of the mis-informed.

Think. Again.

(17,926 posts)
94. Oh yes, we must stay strong on all the other fronts...
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 06:59 PM
Thursday

...but that shouldn't stop us from assuring we employ the safegaurds such as audits and rcounts that all the newer election laws have set up to protect our digital voting security.

Response to Think. Again. (Reply #96)

Response to Think. Again. (Reply #94)

DiamondShark

(1,085 posts)
97. Raises hand...
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 04:05 AM
Friday

Former election IT worker that was part of the 2016, 2018, 2020 elections. I left before the 2022 primary. Send a FOIA request for the 2024 primary results audit. It's too late to receive it before December, but next year be prepared. Overall the results should mirror the general election, when they cheat, they cheat in all races.

I still live in a swing state, and after seeing the massive amount of text messages in my spam folder supporting trump. Based on the volume I think trump supporting Super PACs outspent Harris 5 to 1. My spam number is used for donations and other places I think my number will be sold.

Think. Again.

(17,926 posts)
111. Wait, you had to make a FOIA request to see audit results???
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 05:22 AM
Friday

Obviously, these audits that everyone's saying are keeping our election secure are not actually a security answer.

Response to Think. Again. (Reply #111)

DiamondShark

(1,085 posts)
240. Not my problem.
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 04:01 PM
Friday

When I worked at the election department we secured our network against Russia. If you want to check the ballots file the FOIA, pay the cost, get your own "results."

Response to Think. Again. (Reply #30)

Farmer-Rick

(11,399 posts)
58. Did you read the letter?
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 04:26 PM
Thursday

Or is this mere wishful voting security. Just because you think it. Doesn't make it so.

"In other words, aside from Arizona, in contested states,
there is no legal mechanism for the audit to correct the outcome, no matter how
much error the audit uncovers."

An audit with no ability to correct identified problems is useless. Just an exercise in futility.

Response to Farmer-Rick (Reply #58)

AkFemDem

(2,176 posts)
156. Chin music what does that mean?
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 07:55 AM
Friday

Confused why you keep posting this same thing over and over in the same thread?

Response to AkFemDem (Reply #156)

AkFemDem

(2,176 posts)
161. Oh. why don't you just hit recommend like everyone else?
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 08:04 AM
Friday

Just seems weird to kind of take over a thread with a dozen of the same response- makes scrolling through content kind of a pain.

Response to defacto7 (Reply #184)

Response to AkFemDem (Reply #156)

AkFemDem

(2,176 posts)
162. You can hit "recommend" and your hit will-
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 08:05 AM
Friday

Both show the poster support, but also influence how the thread performs (up/down) the site algos,

Response to AkFemDem (Reply #162)

AkFemDem

(2,176 posts)
165. No, I'm talking about the algorithmic push of a thread-
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 08:14 AM
Friday

to the greatest page.

My point here is you can hit "rec" rather than taking up thread real estate with a ton of "I agree" headlines/no content. You can obviously do whatever you like, tbh I had no clue what your comment/akronym even meant though until you explained.

Response to AkFemDem (Reply #165)

AkFemDem

(2,176 posts)
171. Okay so you do value the "recs"
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 08:25 AM
Friday

Just not enough to use them rather than essentially type "rec" after every post you like ok gotcha.

Are you asking why I did not "rec" this? I am stingy with my recs, they're glorious little prizes I give away sparingly. In this case, I don't agree with the logic of the content the poster shared. I actually explained my reasoning for that in a response in this thread (rather than posting -1zzzz or whatever, haha)

Response to AkFemDem (Reply #171)

Response to AkFemDem (Reply #165)

defacto7

(13,609 posts)
182. Chin Music is doing it the way it's always been done and
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 09:25 AM
Friday

always will be done here on DU. K&R is the old standard. If people want to show their support, they do it. I suggest you get used to it or file a complaint with management for a change to the TOS.

Response to defacto7 (Reply #182)

travelingthrulife

(683 posts)
194. You do not know that.
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 09:59 AM
Friday

You only know that routine checks are showing little. Who knows what kind of voter manipulation Elon and the other oligarchs have pulled off. He has a frickin satellite system to transmit info and billions to buy votes.

Response to Farmer-Rick (Reply #54)

Response to malaise (Reply #109)

magicarpet

(16,501 posts)
221. There is no point saving your ammunition for the bigger battles soon coming.
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 12:28 PM
Friday

The dooms day event is upon us and breathing down our necks. It is long past the time to answer the clarion call to beat back Fascism.

Response to magicarpet (Reply #221)

Response to Think. Again. (Reply #2)

Response to Think. Again. (Reply #2)

Response to defacto7 (Reply #183)

Response to Think. Again. (Reply #2)

Think. Again.

(17,926 posts)
7. Yes, these security experts are requesting...
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 10:36 AM
Thursday

...that any evidence be made discoverable through specific recounts.

As when law enforcement investigates any possible crime, they look for evidence where it can be found.

Abnredleg

(936 posts)
9. Those states are doing audits
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 10:56 AM
Thursday

As part of their certification process. You keep saying that these audits are not binding, but the fact of the matter is that if they find issues they will make the results public because those states have Democratic governors.

Why don’t we let the audit process play out first?

dickthegrouch

(3,547 posts)
11. One of the things they are pointing out
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 12:03 PM
Thursday

Is that the laws and procedures are inadequate in several States to counter any malfeasance should there be an inimical Secretary of State overseeing an election.

A situation I’m sure the GOP would capitalize on given half a chance.

This supposed “nation of laws” is surprisingly inept at correcting the many problems associated with badly written laws, even as it frequently says “we’ll correct it later“

Think. Again.

(17,926 posts)
15. It goes further than just SOS's waving a magic wand to fix things...
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 12:26 PM
Thursday
"Among swing states, only Arizona’s audit laws ensure that, if enough
discrepancies are identified, the audit hand count will be expanded to correct a
potentially incorrect result. In other words, aside from Arizona, in contested states,
there is no legal mechanism for the audit to correct the outcome, no matter how
much error the audit uncovers."

AkFemDem

(2,176 posts)
159. Does no one trust Harris?
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 08:03 AM
Friday

LOOK at her reaction to this loss. It was not shock or surprise. This wasn't 2016. Internal polling is typically much more accurate than what we see smashed all over the news- internal polling must have made it clear this was the expected outcome because she was neither shocked nor devastated. She was prepared, quickly conceded and had Trump on the phone the next day.

The other issue is what about every other state that she underperformed Biden in??? Even reliably blue states that she comfortably won (eg. NJ) Did "they" try to steal those states too- right under the (D) governors and SOSs noses and just fail? Are we really to believe that there's a vast conspiracy at play here and 1. the Harris campaign doesn't care and 2. she underperformed Biden in blue states for legitimate reasons but when she did it in purple states, it was because they tinkered with the pillow man's machines?

Think. Again.

(17,926 posts)
13. Yes, these security experts address the audits in the letter..
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 12:23 PM
Thursday
"Audits will be conducted in some of the most scrutinized states, but in key
states they will not be conducted in a timely way that could reveal any concerns
with the vote count. In addition, in most states the audits are insufficiently rigorous
to ensure any potential errors in tabulation will be caught and corrected, and they
cannot be considered a safeguard against the security breaches that have occurred.
Specifically, Georgia’s audits are non-binding, and Michigan, Nevada and
Wisconsin laws do not provide that the audit be conducted before certification.
Therefore, it would be impossible to know for these critical states if the audits
uncovered errors or miscalculations before the state deadlines to seek recounts.

Among swing states, only Arizona’s audit laws ensure that, if enough
discrepancies are identified, the audit hand count will be expanded to correct a
potentially incorrect result. In other words, aside from Arizona, in contested states,
there is no legal mechanism for the audit to correct the outcome, no matter how
much error the audit uncovers. Given these facts, the only guarantee for rigorous,
effective audits of the vote in the swing states will be through candidate-requested
statewide hand recounts."

Abnredleg

(936 posts)
17. Point being that the facts will come out
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 12:33 PM
Thursday

before the House and Senate vote.

As pointed out many times, the Harris campaign has turnout data down to the precinct level and if those numbers were suspicious they would be complaining. The results are inline with campaign data and polling results, which is why nothing will be found in the audits.

The stuff you are putting out is the same MAGA put out in 2020. Vague alleged threats and numbers that "don't seem right", compounded by a complete lack of knowledge of how elections are run and secured.

Think. Again.

(17,926 posts)
19. I disagree, I think audits and recounts should be done...
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 12:39 PM
Thursday

...to address the wildly inexplicable results and the questions about interference, as well the issues raised in the above letter to VP Harris.

I don't understand why anyone would argue against rigorous verification of the results unless... Nevermind.

But thank you for your input.

Abnredleg

(936 posts)
21. They ARE doing vigorous verification
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 12:49 PM
Thursday

I don’t understand why anyone would argue against this unless… nevermind.

Think. Again.

(17,926 posts)
22. No, they are possibly doing belated audits...
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 12:56 PM
Thursday

...that will offer no remedy to any discrepencies found.

I understand you just want the results to be accepted as they are, but other people, like myself, would like the results corrected if they are wrong for any reason.

Abnredleg

(936 posts)
24. Any discrepancies would be remedied
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 01:04 PM
Thursday

either through the courts or through political action (ie. withdrawing the slate of electors). There is no way in hell an audit that shows issues will be ignored. It just won't happen.

Think. Again.

(17,926 posts)
25. Pardon my American, but,...
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 01:39 PM
Thursday

Bullshit.

I strongly suspect very few people are even thinking about what the results of the audits might be, let alone looking for them to be published and/or acted upon considering their non-binding nature.

Besides, as the letter above clearly states, many of these audits will be completed long after they can have any chance of being considered as a reason to dig deeper.

Abnredleg

(936 posts)
37. Get used to the frustration
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 03:13 PM
Thursday

because, if you haven’t noticed, the CT you and you fellow travelers are pushing isn’t gaining traction, either on DU or the real world. This shouldn’t be surprising given that the Harris campaign, the Dem SOS’s of the swing states, the Biden DOJ and the Democratic political establishment have accepted the results as fair.

We went through all of this in 2020, with the same arguments and rhetorical devices, but at least QAnon had some interesting moments such as Jewish Space Lasers and the Four Seasons Landscaping. BlueAnon is a pale imitation, fatally flawed by the fact that no one in the Establishment believes that fraud changed the outcome.

But you keep up the good work. I’m going to concentrate on rebuilding the Democratic Party rather than descend into the rabbit hole of conspiracy theories.

Think. Again.

(17,926 posts)
38. I think we are talking about 2 completely different subjects...
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 03:18 PM
Thursday

I'm calling for thorough verification of first-count numbers through effective audits and recounts, and you keep bringing up conspiracy theories and rabbit holes.

It's like we're on two different chat boards.

Abnredleg

(936 posts)
39. And why would we doubt the numbers?
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 03:29 PM
Thursday

The campaign and the SOS are not calling for a “thorough verification” because their data and their certification processes show that the numbers are good and an extralegal investigation is not needed. To call for a “thorough verification ” implies that the numbers are questionable, and making that implication is to push a conspiracy theory.

Like I said, Blue Anon is using the same rhetorical techniques as QAnon in 2020. You’re “just asking questions”, right?

Think. Again.

(17,926 posts)
41. I doubt the numbers for a few reasons...
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 03:37 PM
Thursday

1. The heavy mix of Blue down ballot and rd trump wins doesn't make any sense.

2. The low Blue turnout compared to red doesn't make sense considering the prior Blue rally and social media excitement.

3. Musk, one of the world's largest digital entrepreneurs is involved in a digital election.

4. Many well-known and credible experts are also calling for verification.

5. What the hell is "blue anon" and when did that get made up????

Abnredleg

(936 posts)
42. This is the exact same thing that happened in 2020
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 03:41 PM
Thursday

“Things don’t make sense”. We’ve already answered every point you made but you just ignore the arguments and repeat your points.

Anyway, I think I’m going to go with the campaign, the Dem SOS’s and the Biden DOJ on this.

Think. Again.

(17,926 posts)
46. Hang on...
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 03:55 PM
Thursday

....you say you've answered every point I've made?

I apologize, but I must have missed the official link to the results of the audits and recounts you would have had to send me to have actually given me those answers, do you mind reposting that link?

And yes, I agree, you might consider being as quiet about this as the campaign, the Dem SOS’s and the garland DOJ are being.

Abnredleg

(936 posts)
49. I was referring to the "concerns" you have
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 04:04 PM
Thursday

About the election results. As pointed out numerous times, the results were not anomalous and therefore there is no need for extralegal verification steps. That’s the fatal flaw in your reasoning - the results were predicted by many and have been accepted by the political establishment.

Think. Again.

(17,926 posts)
50. No, no, you said you answered all my questions...
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 04:07 PM
Thursday

...but I can't find the official link to the audit and recount results.

Would you mind re-posting it?

Abnredleg

(936 posts)
51. I just clarified what I said
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 04:11 PM
Thursday

I wasn’t talking about audits but rather the need for extralegal verification steps. Do try to keep up.

We’ll hear about audit results if something shows up. Government leaks like a sieve so it’ll come out quickly if anything suspicious is found.

Let’s just let the process unfold.

Think. Again.

(17,926 posts)
55. But you said you answered all my questions, where are the audit and recount results...
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 04:21 PM
Thursday

...since that has been my only question. All day. Non-stop.

Abnredleg

(936 posts)
62. You're being deliberately obtuse
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 04:32 PM
Thursday

I was just pointing out to you that questions about audits and recounts are misplaced because the reasons you advance for wanting those audits have been addressed and have been found wanting. Those are the questions that have been answered repeatedly - the NEED for audits. There is no need for extralegal audits and recounts because you haven’t advanced a convincing reason to shortcut the existing processes.

Think. Again.

(17,926 posts)
67. I have been painstakingly clear that I am only calling for verification of the first-count results...
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 04:42 PM
Thursday

...while there is still time to act on any discrepencies, just as the Security Experts who wrote the letter are doing.

I have been painstakngly clear on that in an effort to avoid the replies that have been insisting we all just look the other way, pre-obey, and allow a questionable election to go unquestioned.

Obviously, I have not succeeded in avoiding those replies.

But you mentioned that you answered those questions of mine, would mind posting those results again? I can't seem to find them.

Response to Think. Again. (Reply #67)

DiamondShark

(1,085 posts)
100. Swing state voter here.
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 04:32 AM
Friday

Social media, direct messages, push polls, etc were the reason we received the low voter turn out. Voter apathy I recall.

After looking through my phones spam folder I found multiple text messages from trump supporting Super PACs. If I received that many that dumped to my spam folder, how many other people didn't have a spam folder setup and saw all the trump garbage.

I had an acquaintance, I had not spoken with in many years, reach out to me to "make sure I voted the right way." She is a retired federal worker and fell for the social media trap pushed out by trump supporting Super PACs. A very nice lady that changed her registration from (D) to (I.) We spoke for about 10 minutes before ending the conversation, sadly I think she voted for trump, and (D) down ballot.

DiamondShark

(1,085 posts)
98. What county is delaying the audit?
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 04:19 AM
Friday

I think it's time to work as a poll worker to gain insight of how our elections are secured.

Farmer-Rick

(11,399 posts)
78. Most of Trump's complaints about voter fraud
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 05:26 PM
Thursday

Were about Electoral votes and NOT individual votes.

When Trump did complain about individual votes it was usually to challenge groups of voters like former inmates or ballots received after election day.

In several cases he used video and claimed it was ballot stuffing with no clear evidence the people in the video were doing anything.

He did Not claim repeated massive security breaches. I wish he had. That evidence would have been useful when added to this.

This is something new. I have heard of one or 2 states being susceptible and breached before the election. I had no idea so many states were involved in these breaches, nor that audits did not correct breaches or security problems when found.

Doing audits without correcting the securitiy problems found, seems more like a how to list for hackers.

DiamondShark

(1,085 posts)
102. I was there in 2016...
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 04:44 AM
Friday

The breeches happened at remote low level sites prior to the primary. They were caught by our great networking and server teams. I remember coworkers going out to address the new security suite installed on every PC in our county. They were also replacing the outdated PCs with those that can support Windows 10. Early in 2020 we received enough of a federal grant to replace all PCs, Laptops, and Servers with more capable machines.

Prior to the 2018 primary we replaced all our voting machines. We did these things to secure our network and securing our elections were part of that.

I have since moved to a better paying IT job.

DiamondShark

(1,085 posts)
239. I don't need to "read the articles."
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 03:59 PM
Friday

I was there, I lived it. We secured our county against the Russians in 2016.

DiamondShark

(1,085 posts)
242. Are you implying that my former coworkers are not doing their jobs?
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 04:06 PM
Friday

Because that is how I read dismissing my experience in the field.

questionseverything

(10,138 posts)
244. I don't know who or what you might be but no techie
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 04:12 PM
Friday

Would pretend there have been no changes between 2016 and 2024… that’s just silly

Hillary didn’t necessarily believe the election results in 2016 but Wisconsin’s ne corner had lots of voting machines with out paper ballots, so nothing to count

DiamondShark

(1,085 posts)
245. As I have stated up thread. re-read the posts.
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 04:19 PM
Friday

I will not answer questions as to specifics at my previous job. I am still a public servant and don't need these posts coming back to bite me.

With regards to the security suite, it was a pain. We had to get approval from the security team any unknown programs were installed or known programs updated. But once the file hashes were known and submitted to the security department, all the PCs were able to install the programs or do updates.

If you feel my experience in IT does not conform to your liking, please apply and get vetted to work as an election worker. I did over 3 background checks per year, and we always worked as a team around the voting machines and tabulators.

stillcool

(32,767 posts)
33. you mean, run out the clock?
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 02:34 PM
Thursday
Audits will be conducted in some of the most scrutinized states, but in key
states they will not be conducted in a timely way that could reveal any concerns
with the vote count. In addition, in most states the audits are insufficiently rigorous
to ensure any potential errors in tabulation will be caught and corrected, and they
cannot be considered a safeguard against the security breaches that have occurred.

Specifically, Georgia’s audits are non-binding, and Michigan, Nevada and
Wisconsin laws do not provide that the audit be conducted before certification.

Therefore, it would be impossible to know for these critical states if the audits
uncovered errors or miscalculations before the state deadlines to seek recounts.

Among swing states, only Arizona’s audit laws ensure that, if enough
discrepancies are identified, the audit hand count will be expanded to correct a
potentially incorrect result. In other words, aside from Arizona, in contested states,
there is no legal mechanism for the audit to correct the outcome, no matter how
much error the audit uncovers.
Given these facts, the only guarantee for rigorous,
effective audits of the vote in the swing states will be through candidate-requested
statewide hand recounts.
(emphasis mine)

The facts around the voting system breaches are not disputed; it is well-
documented that there were severe, multiple voting security breaches before the 2024 election.
To ensure that voters can have confidence that the breaches in
security did not taint the results of the 2024 election, we recommend pursuing hand
recounts in, at minimum, Michigan, Nevada, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania as they
will provide insufficient safeguards against threats posed by the breaches of the
election software and will not provide important information in a timely way.

DiamondShark

(1,085 posts)
103. They dance around the subject...
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 04:46 AM
Friday

Did these Security Professionals hack our election? Can they prove it? Do they want to serve prison time for their deeds?

Bluetus

(87 posts)
230. Absolutely the case.
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 02:40 PM
Friday

The kind of fraud alleged (to be possible) in these cases can easily be detected simply by re-tabulating votes at the precinct levels. Are we accusing these Democratic Governors of being so blind or incompetent to not perform such routine audits?

However, the issue is of great concern in areas that use the so-called DRE (Direct Recording Electronic voting without any paper trail.) Those cases are ripe for this kind of fraud. And after all these years installing modern voting systems, it is appalling how many counties nationwide have absolutely no audit trail.

At this point, we must assume that any locales that do not have a paper trail made that choice specifically in order to enable such fraud. This article says that over 90% of voters live in an area with a paper trail.
https://www.governing.com/next/america-moves-decidedly-toward-paper-based-elections

In my state, 52 of the 92 counties have no audit trail whatsoever, and it is probably no coincidence that this has become a solid red state with a supermajority red legislature dominated by representatives from the counties that have no paper trail. That does not prove there is fraud. But why else would a county choose a system that cannot be audited? In my county, we have a DRE with a paper trail. The paper costs practically nothing, and there is one scanner in each voting location. My guess is the scanners had a one-time cost of about $2,000,000 for a population of about a million. These scanners have served > 10 elections so far, so the actual cost is quite low.

Abnredleg

(936 posts)
254. Both parties observe the count and audits
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 05:02 PM
Friday

So yes, the public does get to inspect the ballots, albeit through representatives. I don’t think you appreciate just how many people are participating or observing these ongoing audits. It’s not a back room situation.

questionseverything

(10,138 posts)
256. No matter what you say, a thousand people could watch a machine spit out a results tape
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 05:08 PM
Friday

It still wouldn’t mean they got to oversee the mechanism that produced the numbers on that tape.

It’s really an emperor has no clothes thing….

Abnredleg

(936 posts)
258. Ever wonder why the campaign didn't question the outcome?
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 05:19 PM
Friday

That’s because campaigns are data driven and campaigns in swing states do modeling down to the sub precinct level. They have detailed data concerning registration and turnout history which, when combined with internal polling, gives them a very good idea on how that location will vote. That’s why the Harris campaign conceded - the outcome matched up with their data. Sure, there might have off on some locations but that is to be expected in a close election. They didn’t contest the election because their own data said the result was not an anomaly. Remember in 2020 when there was an uproar in Michigan where a GOP county showed a strong result for Biden? Everyone, including the Dems, said that this makes no sense according to our data, and sure enough, turns out a tabulator hadn’t been zeroed out after a test run.

questionseverything

(10,138 posts)
269. You don't acknowledge that the system is non transparent or that American citizens have a right to oversee the
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 01:52 AM
Saturday

Voting/ counting process so we will continue to disagree



Kaleva

(38,159 posts)
177. They usually need some evidence that a crime was in fact committed before investigating
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 08:58 AM
Friday

People upset about the outcome of an election isn't enough.

Think. Again.

(17,926 posts)
192. okay, well...
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 09:57 AM
Friday

The next time you call the police about being mugged or something, you better have it all on video with the muggers signed confessions if you want them to investigate it.

Kaleva

(38,159 posts)
196. I'll call the police when I have actually been mugged.
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 10:22 AM
Friday

I'd look like a nut if I went to the police, claiming I had been mugged, without any injuries, no money lost and I was unable to give details about when and where the supposed crime took place

Go to the proper authorities, give them that info about exit polls, and let me know what they say to you.

Think. Again.

(17,926 posts)
197. oh no no no no no no....
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 10:40 AM
Friday

...you can't expect the police to start an investigation into a possible crime until you have all the evidence and proof wrapped up and ready to go, right?

Kaleva

(38,159 posts)
198. Where did I say that I needed ALL the evidence
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 10:45 AM
Friday

I listed enough to show that a crime very likely happened and it's worth investigating.

You haven't even met that minimal standard.

Those who believe the election has been stolen have gone to the authorities already with the evidence they have. Those who don't, haven't .

Have you even contacted the authorities asking them to investigate?

Think. Again.

(17,926 posts)
199. on a side note...
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 11:19 AM
Friday

The new 2022 election protection laws allows for recounts with a simple request from any of the candidates.

That's what the cybersecurity experts who signed the letter are counting on.

So I guess it would be a lot easier than having to bring the mugger into the police station with his confession, and the video, and all the witnesses, and the medical reports of your injuries, etc, if you wanted them to investigate a mugging to be sure you had all the evidence in hand BEFORE you start investigating as you implied was necessary.

Kaleva

(38,159 posts)
268. So what has the Harris campaign told you?
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 12:17 AM
Saturday

When you contacted them about them requesting a recount?

Who did you talk to?

Think. Again.

(17,926 posts)
271. Oh, I think you misunderstand...
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 05:17 AM
Saturday

I am posting on DU, having a discussion with DUers.

It was the cybersecurity experts that wrote that letter to Harris, not me.

Zeitghost

(4,550 posts)
203. You are still making these badly flawed analogies
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 11:38 AM
Friday

Implying that a crime has been committed and we just need to find the culprit. When in actuality, we do not have even a hint of actual evidence that a crime was even committed.

Think. Again.

(17,926 posts)
205. oh! You didn't read the OP, did you?!?
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 11:42 AM
Friday

It posts a letter signed by a group of cybersecurity experts that begin by saying this...

"Dear Vice President Harris,

We write to alert you to serious election security breaches that have
threatened the security and integrity of the 2024 elections, and to identify ways to
ensure that the will of the voters is reflected and that voters should have confidence
in the result. "

Zeitghost

(4,550 posts)
206. We've been over this
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 11:44 AM
Friday

They clearly state they have no evidence of a crime and are in no way making the suggestion that one has even occurred.

This has been pointed out to you before. Yet you continue to spread wild claims with no proof.

Think. Again.

(17,926 posts)
217. And I'll say it once again...
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 12:09 PM
Friday

I. Am. Making. No. Claims.

I believe it is in the nation's best interest to persue rigorous verification of first-count election results.

Loupe Garoue

(68 posts)
10. A targeted hand count
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 11:03 AM
Thursday

would provide the evidence or not, and given who we are dealing with, I wouldn’t trust these results until verification is completed.

Farmer-Rick

(11,399 posts)
64. There were security breaches
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 04:33 PM
Thursday

So Trump Dumpy and his Russian pals breached numerous voting systems for fun? They weren't trying to rig the vote counts cause we trust them.

"The facts around the voting system breaches are not disputed; it is well-
documented that there were severe, multiple voting security breaches before the 2024 election."

Nothing to see here audits were done ....though not to correct anything. So, it was just Trumpy Dumpy messing around. No rigging involved. Move along, move along.

ElementaryPenguin

(7,846 posts)
92. Well, when you investigate concerns THAT''S when you usually uncover whatever evidence there is!!
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 06:05 PM
Thursday

Not the other way around!

Obviously, most successful investigations end up revealing more evidence than they started out with.

Come on, people! Think!!

Abnredleg

(936 posts)
202. There's this concept called probable cause
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 11:38 AM
Friday

That has to be met before you can investigate, because who wants a legal system where police can meddle in whatever they choose without good reason?

Abnredleg

(936 posts)
243. I like transparency but hate conspiracies
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 04:09 PM
Friday

And what is being pushed is a conspiracy to cast doubt on our election systems. All states have extensive security in place to protect again fraud, and all states take post election steps to ensure the vote was fair. Audits are being conducted - what more do you want? They are already checking for fraud so why circumvent the existing systems that have been shown to be effective?

I agree with Harris, the Dem SOS’s, and the DOJ - the election was open and fair. Even the letter writers in the OP offer no proof of fraud.

questionseverything

(10,138 posts)
246. If American citizens are not allowed to see the actual counting of votes,
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 04:20 PM
Friday

We don’t have free and fair elections.

The article explains how the audits will not change anything, no matter what they find except for in Georgia….. through this thread you have made claims that is not true but you haven’t posted a link or anything to back it up, just your word as a nameless, faceless poster on the net, as opposed to professional s who have signed their names and put their reputations on the line for democracy.

Abnredleg

(936 posts)
247. Nonbinding does not mean ignore
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 04:30 PM
Friday

Only that additional steps need to be taken if problems are discovered, which make sense since audits are based on sampling so there will always be an issue of margins of error. Do you really think that if an audit finds fraud everyone will shrug their shoulders? Of course not - they go to the courts to get a full recount.

As to the veracity of the letter writers, I would just ask what about the veracity of the campaign, the Dem SOS’s and the DOJ? I would post links to their silence but that’s an impossibility. If there was seriously doubts about the election then people would be speaking up. How do you explain their silence? Are they part of the conspiracy as well?

questionseverything

(10,138 posts)
250. When kerry "lost" to bush the congressional black caucus
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 04:57 PM
Friday

Said it wasn’t legit, on the house floor and nothing was done so

I don’t have much faith in the ptb



bluestarone

(18,220 posts)
14. To my way of thinking, AFTER witnessing what TFG WILL DO in our countrys future
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 12:23 PM
Thursday

I say THIS is the easiest and most crucial thing that needs to be done. Lot's of threads are asking what we can do to stop TFG's plans. THIS is the starting point. Especially If we find anything wrong after recount in Pennsylvania. Lets do it!!

Think. Again.

(17,926 posts)
16. I agree, I think that rigorous result verification..
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 12:28 PM
Thursday

...should be part and parcel of ANY election process.

lees1975

(5,943 posts)
27. Are you a cybersecurity expert? Or have access to all of the voter data?
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 01:56 PM
Thursday

On what specific evidence do you base your conclusion? He's had three years to screw with this, and paid for experts to steal data to fix it for himself. There are some unexplainable discrepancies that should be investigated. And I hope they do.

DiamondShark

(1,085 posts)
104. Raises hand, Pick me, Pick me!
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 04:55 AM
Friday
There are some unexplainable discrepancies that should be investigated.

First, I want to request a source.

Are you a cybersecurity expert?

Second, I would like to say based on my co-workers hard work and due diligence in the 2022 and I presume the 2024 elections, we were good in 2016, 2018, and 2020 when I was there. Why would we be lax in our security protocols in 2024? I left before the 2022 primary, but I still saw them occasionally and we chat about previous jobs.

Or have access to all of the voter data?

Good luck with that, you are asking people to commit felonies with that statement. Not to mention an NDA violation from the voting companies Dominion and ES&S.

Response to lees1975 (Reply #27)

Response to Jacson6 (Reply #18)

asm128

(228 posts)
20. But..but..but..that's a conspiracy
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 12:44 PM
Thursday

So many people on this site swear up and down that the election was fair, and that this kind of thing could never happen.

Those people are sadly naive.

Response to Think. Again. (Reply #23)

Think. Again.

(17,926 posts)
122. Ha! Yes...
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 07:05 AM
Friday

I've always thought the attempt to shut down opposing views by simply calling them "conspiracy theories" was weak because people do indeed conspire (that's why we have a word for it) and developing theories to assist in finding facts is a tried and true scientific practice.

But, obviously, the bad-faith scare-tactic of calling opposing views CTs works very well on the average knee-jerk American.

Response to Think. Again. (Reply #122)

Think. Again.

(17,926 posts)
125. THAT is the big question, although I suspect I know the answer.....
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 07:10 AM
Friday

...to why some people don't want the first-count results to be looked at too closely, if you know what I mean.

Response to Think. Again. (Reply #125)

Response to Think. Again. (Reply #125)

Response to Think. Again. (Reply #23)

Response to asm128 (Reply #20)

Ilikepurple

(100 posts)
29. I'd love to see a recount of some areas if possible
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 02:00 PM
Thursday

People act like the only issue is whether Harris could win. I think even a targeted recount would have some worth. It might actually find something, but just as valuable is letting the powers that be know that people are still watching and don’t automatically believe the results. It might merely give some peace of mind. At some point someone will figure out how to game at least some of the states. The pre Trump range of possibilities has been expanded.

Response to Ilikepurple (Reply #29)

Zeitghost

(4,550 posts)
34. Doesn't seem too promising
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 02:36 PM
Thursday

"We have no evidence that the outcomes of the elections in those states were actually compromised as a result of the security breaches, and we are not suggesting that they were."

Think. Again.

(17,926 posts)
43. Correct...
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 03:41 PM
Thursday

You know how when police are investigating a crime and have no evidence it was committed by their main suspect so they take fingerprints or DNA or something and then proceed?

It's like that.

That's the context of the statement that you took that one qoute out of.

Zeitghost

(4,550 posts)
53. You're putting the cart before the horse
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 04:18 PM
Thursday

We don't even have evidence of a crime being committed. We have warnings that maybe, possibly, something could theoretically have happened.

Think. Again.

(17,926 posts)
57. Yes, there is "suspicion" of crimes being committed...
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 04:25 PM
Thursday

...so let's just do what any law enforcement agency does when they have suspicious activity and clarify whether there actually were crimes committed by looking for the evidence, in this case by doing audits and recounts.

Zeitghost

(4,550 posts)
61. No, there is wild speculation
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 04:32 PM
Thursday

Nobody, in any state, in any district, in any official position related with the oversight of elections has noted anything suspicious.

There are many layers of safeguards built into the system and they are playing out right now. After they conclude and if they have any findings that indicate something may have happened, they will be investigated at that time.

Think. Again.

(17,926 posts)
66. In response to your "wild speculation" claim, I guess it's okay to just post this again...
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 04:36 PM
Thursday

I removed the citations and footnotes for clarity, but all verification of claims can be found in the original document here: https://freespeechforpeople.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/11/letter-to-vp-harris-111324.pdf


The Honorable Kamala Harris
The White House
Office of the Vice President
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W.
Washington, DC 20500

Dear Vice President Harris,

We write to alert you to serious election security breaches that have
threatened the security and integrity of the 2024 elections, and to identify ways to
ensure that the will of the voters is reflected and that voters should have confidence
in the result. The most effective manner of doing so is through targeted recounts
requested by the candidate. In the light of the breaches we ask that you formally
request hand recounts in at least the states of Michigan, Nevada, Wisconsin, and
Pennsylvania. We have no evidence that the outcomes of the elections in those
states were actually compromised as a result of the security breaches, and we are
not suggesting that they were. But binding risk-limiting audits (RLAs) or hand
recounts should be routine for all elections, especially when the stakes are high and
the results are close. We believe that, under the current circumstances when
massive software breaches are known and documented, recounts are necessary and
appropriate to remove all potential doubt and to set an example for security best
practices in all elections.

In 2022, records, video camera footage, and deposition testimony produced
in a civil case in Georgia disclosed that its voting system, used statewide, had
been breached over multiple days by operatives hired by attorneys for Donald
Trump. The evidence showed that the operatives made copies of the software
that runs all of the equipment in Georgia, and certain other states, and shared it
with other Trump allies and operatives.

Subsequent court filings and public records requests revealed that the
breaches in Georgia were part of a larger effort to take copies of voting system
software from systems in Michigan, Pennsylvania, Colorado and Arizona, and
to share the software in the operatives’ network. According to testimony and
declarations by some of the technicians who have obtained copies of the
software, they have had access for more than three years to the software for the
central servers, tabulators, and highly restricted election databases of both Election Systems & Software (ES&S), and Dominion Voting Systems, the two largest
voting system vendors, constituting the most severe election security breach
publicly known.

Combined, their equipment counts nearly 70% of all votes nationwide.
Ninety-six percent of Arizona voters use Dominion and ES&S equipment; 100% of
Georgia voters vote on Dominion machines; 98% of Nevada votes on Dominion
voting machines and the remainder uses ES&S; 69% of Michigan voters’ ballots
are counted on Dominion or ES&S equipment; 89% of Pennsylvania voters ballots are counted on Dominion or ES&S equipment; ES&S counts 92% of North
Carolina ballots; and either ES&S or Dominion counts 97% of Wisconsin votes.

Possessing copies of the voting system software enables bad actors to install
it on electronic devices and to create their own working replicas of the voting
systems, probe them, and develop exploits. Skilled adversaries can decompile the
software to get a version of the source code, study it for vulnerabilities, and could
even develop malware designed to be installed with minimal physical access to the voting equipment by unskilled accomplices to manipulate the vote counts. Attacks could also be launched by compromising the vendors responsible for programming systems before elections, enabling large scale distribution of malware.

In December 2022 and again in 2023, many of us, concerned by the
security risks posed by these breaches, wrote to the Attorney General, FBI
Director, and Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency (CISA) Director outlining the security concerns and urging an investigation. Though there have
been limited, localized investigations,14 there is no evidence of a federal
investigation to determine what was done with the misappropriated voting
software.

Other relevant parties have pointed to the serious risks posed by the
misappropriation of the voting software. Before it was known that partisan
operatives had taken the software, Dominion Voting Systems objected vehemently to providing its software to the same partisan actors who ultimately got copies through voting system breaches, stating that to give its software to biased actors would cause “irreparable damage” to the “election security interests of the
country.”

Before the breaches in Georgia had been confirmed, the Georgia Secretary
of State’s chief information officer testified that having copies of the software
would provide a “road map” to the ways the system could be accessed. The
Georgia Attorney General opposed providing copies of the software to lawyers for the Trump campaign in a late 2020 election challenge, arguing that images of the voting system software would provide “the keys to the software kingdom.”

Notably, U.S. elections are potentially resilient because there are paper
ballots recording the voters’ intent in most states, meaning that even if the voting
system is at risk, the will of the voters can be determined reliably by recounting the
paper ballots by hand (although we are aware that not all paper ballots are verified
by the voter, and not all states take adequate care to protect the ballot chain of
custody.)

Audits will be conducted in some of the most scrutinized states, but in key
states they will not be conducted in a timely way that could reveal any concerns
with the vote count. In addition, in most states the audits are insufficiently rigorous
to ensure any potential errors in tabulation will be caught and corrected, and they
cannot be considered a safeguard against the security breaches that have occurred.
Specifically, Georgia’s audits are non-binding, and Michigan, Nevada and
Wisconsin laws do not provide that the audit be conducted before certification.
Therefore, it would be impossible to know for these critical states if the audits
uncovered errors or miscalculations before the state deadlines to seek recounts.

Among swing states, only Arizona’s audit laws ensure that, if enough
discrepancies are identified, the audit hand count will be expanded to correct a
potentially incorrect result. In other words, aside from Arizona, in contested states,
there is no legal mechanism for the audit to correct the outcome, no matter how
much error the audit uncovers. Given these facts, the only guarantee for rigorous,
effective audits of the vote in the swing states will be through candidate-requested
statewide hand recounts.
(emphasis mine)

The facts around the voting system breaches are not disputed; it is well-
documented that there were severe, multiple voting security breaches before the 2024 election. To ensure that voters can have confidence that the breaches in
security did not taint the results of the 2024 election, we recommend pursuing hand
recounts in, at minimum, Michigan, Nevada, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania as they
will provide insufficient safeguards against threats posed by the breaches of the
election software and will not provide important information in a timely way.

Thank you for your time and consideration of this important matter.

Sincerely,

Duncan Buell Ph.D.
Chair Emeritus — NCR Chair in Computer Science and Engineering
Dept. of Computer Science and Engineering
University of South Carolina*
David Jefferson Ph.D.
Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory* (retired)
Election Integrity Foundation*
Susan Greenhalgh
Senior Advisor for Election Security
Free Speech For People
Chris Klaus
Founder
Internet Security System*
William John Malik
Malik Consulting, LLC*
Peter G. Neumann Ph.D.
Chief Scientist,
SRI International Computer Science Lab*
John E. Savage
An Wang Professor Emeritus of Computer Science
Brown University*
*Affiliations are listed for identification purposes only and do not imply
institutional endorsement.

Zeitghost

(4,550 posts)
68. Right, they clearly state:
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 04:42 PM
Thursday
We have no evidence that the outcomes of the elections in those
states were actually compromised as a result of the security breaches, and we are
not suggesting that they were
.

You have possible evidence that places in the system are vulnerable. You have wild speculation that those possible vulnerabilities were used.

You seem unable or unwilling to distinguish between the two.

Think. Again.

(17,926 posts)
70. Right, they also clearly state at the very beginning of their letter...
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 04:45 PM
Thursday

"We write to alert you to serious election security breaches that have
threatened the security and integrity of the 2024 elections, and to identify ways to
ensure that the will of the voters is reflected and that voters should have confidence
in the result. "

Zeitghost

(4,550 posts)
73. Which is why I stated
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 05:03 PM
Thursday

That we have evidence of possible vulnerabilities. You keep making claims that skip right from possible vulnerabilities to actual crimes that need to be investigated and then post articles that clearly state they are not even suggesting that a crime was committed.


You've come home and noticed you forgot to lock the back door and you're ready to call the police despite nothing being out of place, nothing being missing and no signs of an intruder.

Think. Again.

(17,926 posts)
74. But I have not made any claims at all....
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 05:07 PM
Thursday

I have noted possible vulnerabilities.

May I ask why it's so important to you to discourage a vigorous verification of the first-count results?

Zeitghost

(4,550 posts)
77. Yes you have
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 05:19 PM
Thursday

"You know how when police are investigating a crime and have no evidence it was committed by their main suspect so they take fingerprints or DNA or something and then proceed?

It's like that."


Vigorous verifications are going on as we speak. They have noted nothing so far. I'm happy with that, why aren't you?

Think. Again.

(17,926 posts)
90. The discussion was obviously about actively looking for evidence.
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 05:56 PM
Thursday

Please stop trying to twist all this to prove your pount.

I get it, you want the first-count results to go unchallenged, that's fine, but now I'm getting embarrassed for you from the posts you're making, they're silly.

Response to Think. Again. (Reply #90)

Zeitghost

(4,550 posts)
87. It seems to me
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 05:51 PM
Thursday

That those with the most certainty that there was fraud seem to show over and over that they have not done any research into the election systems they just know have been "hacked".

My curiosity has been more than satisfied by my reading on the laws and procedures in my own state as well as others, especially swing states.

Turns out that when you look into it, election fraud claims made by Trump, Giuliani, My Pillow Guy, right wing nut jobs all over the internet and now far too many members on DU are not only lacking of any evidence, but you also learn of the many steps that have been implemented to secure our election system and that state and local officials are busy before, during and after the elections making sure nothing happens.

Response to Zeitghost (Reply #87)

Think. Again.

(17,926 posts)
124. And those with certainty that there wasn't fraud are...
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 07:08 AM
Friday

...possibly endangering our Democracy.

And why do people keep claiming that we have to have the evidence BEFORE we investigate to look for the evidence????

tintinvotes

(34 posts)
173. Yep
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 08:30 AM
Friday

This poster is very determined that we not question the guy who cheated on all 3 wives, cheats at golf and tried to steal the election who has been conspiring with Russia.

Loupe Garoue

(68 posts)
174. These are cybersecurity experts, not the My Pillow guy.
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 08:37 AM
Friday

They are bringing it up because there are significant vulnerabilities in an election where all the momentum was on our side and most people in the business of prognostics thought she would win. The opposition is a career criminal who was headed for prison for one of his many crimes. He is being helped by the world’s richest man, who seems to have ethics issues of his own.

It is entirely plausible that they cheated in ways the average person would not detect. That is why we have experts. Geez, the Republicans believe everything even after refutation, and on our side we fight about letting the experts who care about accurate voting totals do their thing. Such a waste of energy. And since the criminals are now in power, it probably will go nowhere anyway.

Response to NJCher (Reply #84)

DiamondShark

(1,085 posts)
105. Did those Security Professionals compromise our election?
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 05:03 AM
Friday

Is that why they are being caution about what accusations are made?

soandso

(1,155 posts)
110. They sent the letter to Harris
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 05:16 AM
Friday

and Marc Elias, the king of lawfare, will also see it. The people who signed that letter would have a lot more pull and get more attention than anyone here.

questionseverything

(10,138 posts)
255. Elias didn't seem to think bomb scares all over Democratic strongholds were a huge problem
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 05:04 PM
Friday

Or even mention the poll books in apache county not working, so I don’t know what to think of him.

Response to Zeitghost (Reply #68)

Response to Think. Again. (Reply #57)

Think. Again.

(17,926 posts)
153. Thank you!
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 07:45 AM
Friday

I keep trying to tell people that evidence is found AFTER looking for it, but they keep trying to tell me that we should have the evidence in hand BEFORE we start an investigation to look for the evidence.

It's weird.

Response to Think. Again. (Reply #153)

Response to Think. Again. (Reply #155)

Think. Again.

(17,926 posts)
166. I agree...
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 08:16 AM
Friday

There's a very good reason why the new election laws call for Audits of every election.

Unfortunately, the disconnect between these new Federal laws and how those laws are actually implemented by states leave the possibility of the audits to be ineffectual at verifying the first-count results.

That's why I am so strongly pushing for audits and recounts to be done, over and above what the various states are actually doing to be in compliance with the laws.

How anyone could NOT want the most stringent verification of election results is very suspicious to me.

Response to Think. Again. (Reply #166)

 

Autisminsight

(14 posts)
35. audit
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 02:54 PM
Thursday

Audit the damn all-in-one =-machines. Sec of State should step in now, not wait for courts or politicians. Better to act now and ask for forgiveness later than for permission. Courts will keep it tied up and play out the clock, like Repubs always do.

Abnredleg

(936 posts)
36. Where's the probable cause?
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 02:57 PM
Thursday

Last edited Thu Nov 14, 2024, 03:30 PM - Edit history (1)

The Harris campaign, the Dem SOS’s and Biden’s DOJ don’t see any issues, so what is the justifications for extralegal steps?

Think. Again.

(17,926 posts)
44. Correction...
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 03:44 PM
Thursday

The Harris campaign, the Dem SOS’s and garland's DOJ HAVE NOT PUBLICLY STATED if they see any issues.

Abnredleg

(936 posts)
45. You're trying too hard
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 03:53 PM
Thursday

Given the certification timeline, they would have been in court already if they had concerns, not to mention social media would be on fire as the campaign readied the public for a legal battle.

Think. Again.

(17,926 posts)
48. (psssttt... some of the first-counts aren't even done yet and audits also take a little time)
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 04:00 PM
Thursday

But yes, I agree, the fear is that the rightwing will once again run out the clock by convincing the public there is no need to rush into anything as drastic as simply verifying the numbers.

Attilatheblond

(4,293 posts)
52. And audit ANY/ALL ballots that ever got near Musk's Starlink system.
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 04:13 PM
Thursday

He wants to be the boss of us but can't run for POTUS. He can, and likely did, buy a man to be proxy POTUS for him and several other billionaires who think a lot of themselves.

Catbird

(731 posts)
40. These folks are serious.
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 03:34 PM
Thursday

The authors of this letter are not election deniers. They are not conspiracy theorists. They have years of experience in computer security and election technology. They are asking for more data related to the election. There is no downside to more data. At the very least there should be interesting insights that could inform actions now and into the future.

Abnredleg

(936 posts)
47. There is a downside to extralegal steps
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 03:59 PM
Thursday

Because it implies that the existing safeguards are inadequate and our elections are threatened. Sowing distrust of the fairness of our elections is very dangerous. There are plenty of safeguards in place - if no one is seeing red flags then it means they don’t exist.

There is always room for improvements, but that happens after the election.

Loupe Garoue

(68 posts)
56. Usually that might be true
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 04:22 PM
Thursday

We are in extraordinary circumstances now where a felon and insurrectionist has “ won” an election despite polls predicting a different outcome. There was high registration and enthusiasm on the Democratic side, low effort and bizarre behavior and statements by T**** . We now see he plans to install the least qualified and most damaging people to his cabinet.
I think we need to do anything and everything we can to delegitimize this administration especially when it is simply a hand count. There is too much to lose and as these professionals have pointed out, not enough safeguards to electronic voting.

Think. Again.

(17,926 posts)
60. Why would improvements have to wait until AFTER a questionable election?
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 04:31 PM
Thursday

Why not fix the problem before it causes damage?

Abnredleg

(936 posts)
65. You're begging the question
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 04:34 PM
Thursday

No one except you and fellow conspirators think the election results are questionable.

Abnredleg

(936 posts)
71. Some proof would be nice
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 04:46 PM
Thursday

proof sufficient to change the mind of the campaign, the SOS's or the DOJ.

Anyway, enough play for tonight.

Abnredleg

(936 posts)
76. How about establishing the need for extralegal steps?
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 05:19 PM
Thursday

If you can’t establish probable cause to create an extralegal process then you shouldn’t do so. You have yet to establish probable cause - concerns from people on the Internet won’t do. We are are over a week into the certification process so something should have popped up by now.

Think. Again.

(17,926 posts)
80. Oh, okay, I guess you missed this part of the thread, here ya go...
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 05:30 PM
Thursday
"We write to alert you to serious election security breaches that have
threatened the security and integrity of the 2024 elections, and to identify ways to
ensure that the will of the voters is reflected and that voters should have confidence
in the result."


There's a lot more to the letter, you should read it.

I admire how protective you are being of the first-count election results, incredibly so! but audits and even recounts are not "extra-legal" when requested by a candidate.

Think. Again.

(17,926 posts)
91. That letter is the entire premise of this entire thread.
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 06:00 PM
Thursday

It is all there is to any of this.

I happen to agree with the letter, and you seem to prefer trump's win is left unchallenged.

Why are we going back and forth all day with such a trivial little discussion board chat???

DiamondShark

(1,085 posts)
108. We did in 2016.
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 05:07 AM
Friday

The Russians infiltrated our county network and we then implemented a protocol and added more security to every PC so it doesn't happen again.

When I left we had Red Teams come out and test our network. Blue teams where hardening our network.

Red Team and Blue Team refer to outside Security Professionals, and inside Security Professionals.

Catbird

(731 posts)
75. Not extralegal
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 05:13 PM
Thursday

They are not recommending extralegal steps. They are recommending legal action allowed by current law.

LiberaBlueDem

(1,160 posts)
59. A conspiracy?
Thu Nov 14, 2024, 04:30 PM
Thursday

There are about ten Duers who do not think trump conspired to win this election. Then there are the rest of us who know better. We know trump is a gamer who would do whatever it took to game the system

Then we get this letter from election experts who say it was possible trump gamed the system and they show how the system needs to be operated to make sure it was not gamed by trump

I say we take their advice and make sure the system was not gamed

soandso

(1,155 posts)
112. Do you not think that the Democratic party and Harris campaign
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 05:48 AM
Friday

would do absolutely anything to win this election? Party leadership and big donors went so far as to push out an incumbent president and primary winner (an extraordinary and highly controversial move) in an effort at what they hoped would be the better chance at winning. You think they aren't looking at every avenue available to them, including re-counting some random precincts (which I also agree is prudent and makes perfect sense)? The letter you posted WAS sent to Harris. Do you think they won't act on it?

Think. Again.

(17,926 posts)
121. I'm sure they would....
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 06:56 AM
Friday

Why do you think that should affect my own strong opinion that any and all verifications of the first-count numbers should be done?

Response to Think. Again. (Reply #121)

soandso

(1,155 posts)
263. I don't think it should effect your opinion
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 07:26 PM
Friday

But I think you seem desperate and are ignoring that the Harris people have been notified and are taking all of this into account.

soandso

(1,155 posts)
266. Okay, then my bad
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 09:29 PM
Friday

I perceived you as coming across as though people weren't taking these issues seriously.

Think. Again.

(17,926 posts)
270. I believe they seriously don't want the first-count challenged...
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 05:14 AM
Saturday

...otherwise they wouldn't keep writing posts trying to convince others not to push for audits and recounts.

soandso

(1,155 posts)
272. I think some are afraid of looking or being "conspiratorial"
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 05:22 AM
Saturday

and others believe we have the "most secure and fair elections".

soandso

(1,155 posts)
274. I understand
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 05:59 AM
Saturday

and agree automatic and random recounts of some precincts. Nothing wrong with that, at all.

Think. Again.

(17,926 posts)
275. And my position throughout this entire thread is that...
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 06:17 AM
Saturday

...automatic and random recounts of some precincts is not nearly enough to assure verification of the first-cont, and that the mandated audit laws that exist are not nearly strong enough to actually correct any first-count vote disparities.

(By the way, this conversation is just now beginning to border on sane, honest, and reasonable, thank you for that.)

Think. Again.

(17,926 posts)
279. That should be standard practice with anything as important as public office elections...
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 03:23 PM
Saturday

...but in this situation, I believe the priority focus should be on the areas that are showing reasons to be suspicious (such as the "bullet ballots" of N.C. and others) as well as the swing states where any nefarious activity could reasonably be expected to have occurred, and of course the areas that the authors of the cybersecurity letter are concerned about.

soandso

(1,155 posts)
280. I had to look up bullet ballot
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 03:37 PM
Saturday

Are you talking about ranked choice voting where some chooses the same candidate for 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc? Like this:

Think. Again.

(17,926 posts)
281. I am referring to these "bullet ballots"...
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 03:48 PM
Saturday

-snip-

Approximately 600,000 votes are for Donald Trump but with no down ballot choices. These are either inserted “bullet ballots” for the Presidential race or manipulated data fields. They are surgically added to totals in limited jurisdictions and within only the seven swing States. This historically unprecedented set of numbers found in the 2024 swing states is absent in every other state. In AZ, MI, NC and WI the effect of these drop-off votes reverses the voters' will and even more improbably always pushes the winning margin beyond the mandatory recount numbers. It is a result too perfect for belief. It is a bespoke and programmed outcome. In other states including PA and NV, removing these strange and bespoke added votes, it appears Donald Trump may have won the cast votes but within a margin which would force recounts. The inserted votes raise his totals, to avoid any scrutiny during mandatory recount results which would have slowed his claim on the Presidency. In GA and FL the same pattern exists with unclear impact on the results.

This attack is not technically difficult. It is modest in scale.

-snip-

Source: https://substack.com/home/post/p-151721941

More info: https://www.democraticunderground.com/100219728701



soandso

(1,155 posts)
282. Okay, I looked at some of that and he's speculating
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 04:26 PM
Saturday

and saying he "believes" certain things happened. That doesn't cut it. Evidence is required. This is the same thing that happened in the last election and no court would hear any of the arguments the Trump people presented.

He also made an untrue statement, claiming Musk paid people to vote for Trump. Musk's petition was for support of the first and second amendments, with the requirement that the signee be a registered voter. It was a voter registration incentive. Anyone who signed could have voted for anyone or not voted, at all.

Think. Again.

(17,926 posts)
283. Yes, just as when any prosecutor brings any case to court....
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 04:35 PM
Saturday

...on the basis that they "believe" the evidence proves their case, ultimately to be finally determined by a jury.

I can't imagine why any true Democrat would not want the results of this (or any) election to be rigorously verified.

soandso

(1,155 posts)
284. Belief isn't enough
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 05:07 PM
Saturday

and the prosecutor has to present evidence at a preliminary hearing to prove there's enough worthy of a trial.

Think. Again.

(17,926 posts)
285. Ye, that evidence is "discovered" through investigations, like the recounts that are being called for.
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 05:10 PM
Saturday

Response to Think. Again. (Reply #63)

Meowmee

(5,467 posts)
99. Yep
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 04:30 AM
Friday

Why on earth would we have any reason to be suspicious? After all it is perfectly normal to tell your voters not to vote for you because you already have the votes.

Response to Meowmee (Reply #99)

Response to Emile (Reply #89)

Response to pat_k (Reply #106)

lapfog_1

(30,143 posts)
107. pretty much what I said
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 05:06 AM
Friday
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=19687762

only with more "meat on the bone".

but I suspect if there was a hack ( requires no network connectivity ), it would be very difficult to find any trace OTHER that doing paper ballots and now a hand count ( multiple times ) and no computer transmission or tabulation anywhere in the vote totals.

Without the paper ballots ( and not a computer produced piece of paper ) and a nationwide Dade county redo of 2000 ( hanging chads anyone? ), we will never know.

Again, we don't have direct evidence other than I think I can now state for near certainty that "crazy bear" has copies of the binary OS and binary Apps. Doing a reverse compile is not a problem.

BTW, I have met I think 3 of the people that signed this letter.

I trust them.

Sadly it will likely go nowhere.

Response to lapfog_1 (Reply #107)

Response to Loupe Garoue (Original post)

Response to Loupe Garoue (Original post)

BComplex

(9,075 posts)
150. It is ABSOLUTELY essential that the Harris/Walz campaign audit votes, but the software needs to be forensically
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 07:38 AM
Friday

inspected, and something needs to be done nationwide.

Response to Loupe Garoue (Original post)

Loupe Garoue

(68 posts)
187. You are talking to me, right?
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 09:44 AM
Friday

I am still learning the ropes because I have been a lurker for so long. Thanks for talking it through.

Response to Loupe Garoue (Reply #187)

Response to Loupe Garoue (Reply #195)

ecstatic

(34,367 posts)
176. How would a recount show if the systems were hacked or exploited?
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 08:55 AM
Friday

Are they referring to a recount of the paper receipts? Maybe that's why trump was so quiet after the election. He was holding his breath to see if we would dare request recounts. His buddies assured him that we wouldn't because of "democracy."

It's possible that he "got" us, but I have one request: in the future, can we just make recounts standard and automatic? It doesn't mean we're questioning or interfering with democracy. It should be standard protocol. The outcome of these elections are too important to just hope that everything went well. I don't want to feel unease or doubt about the situation. We should never have to feel that. So just make it automatic going forward.

stillcool

(32,767 posts)
179. a recount of the ballots, and whatever the term is
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 09:13 AM
Friday

for touch screen equipment. In the letter they mention that problems of state standardized audit methods, and their inability to detect fraud. There are ways to insure our elections are safe, secure and the vote count accurate, which many states have already done. But the other state governments, the ones that making voting harder to damn near impossible have other priorities, and so do the people that choose to elect them

Think. Again.

(17,926 posts)
188. Audits are already required by current election laws...
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 09:46 AM
Friday

But there is a gap between what the Federal law requires and how states implemebt those laws that leaves the audits ineffective in assuring the election results are true when certified by the states.

These laws also allow for more indepth and accurate recounts to be requested by any candidate.

And I agree, the laws should be further strengthened so that there is never any question (which would have to be resolved quickly) about the accuracy of the election results by mandated multiple forms of vote counting (recounting in different ways than just the digitized tabulators) before an election is even called by the state.

Jarqui

(10,487 posts)
181. There is nothing wrong with an audit recount
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 09:16 AM
Friday

I've advocated for it previously

If there is no issue, the hand recount will back up the results. No worries.

The only fear would be if it turns up something that won't back up the results.
Why is it wrong to know that?

Abnredleg

(936 posts)
200. Audits are part of the certification process
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 11:34 AM
Friday

But apparently they aren’t real audits and we need to do “real” ones.

The thing about recounts is that they’re rarely result in a change to outcomes, and only in races with razor thin margins. A recount in the current situation will just result in the same results become if there were major discrepancies the campaigns would have already picked it up with their own data.

https://fairvote.org/report/election-recounts-2024/

Abnredleg

(936 posts)
207. Finally, you said something accurate
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 11:44 AM
Friday

This is nothing here. Audits are ongoing and nothing has been found. The campaigns, the Democratic SOS’s and the DOJ have not turned up any evidence, which make sense since the outcome is not an anomaly. All you have is a letter that actually states that there is no evidence of fraud. Which also make sense since the potential threats they point out are easily mitigated, and such mitigation are currently integrated into election security SOPs.

But, please carry on.

Think. Again.

(17,926 posts)
218. Maybe we should not even actually count the votes...
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 12:11 PM
Friday

...and just rely on whatever the news media says about who legitimately won?

Abnredleg

(936 posts)
220. They did count the votes
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 12:22 PM
Friday

And they are now auditing them. Furthermore, there are other methods the campaign has to determine what went on in each of the precincts and nothing has shown up. Your problem is that you don’t understand how elections are run nor just how difficult it is to pull off widespread fraud. To use the letter you posted in the OP, you do realize that you will have to touch thousands of machines since they are not connected to a network? And you do realize that physical security is the foundation of any election security plan? You get back to us with a plausible theory in which you can gain access to thousands of machines in hundreds of counties, many controlled by Democrats, and maybe you won’t be mocked so mercilessly. That’s not going to happen, though, only hand waving and vague concerns.

I speak with 25 years in government IT - that letter is nonsense. The fact that is being widely ignored by the election security community tells you all you need to know about its validity.

Think. Again.

(17,926 posts)
223. I see, YOUR experience tells you the people who signed...
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 12:38 PM
Friday

...that letter have written "nonsense".

Got it.

Abnredleg

(936 posts)
224. Not to mention the rest of the election security community
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 12:48 PM
Friday

Don’t you think that if the threat in the letter was plausible it would have been picked up by other security experts? Their silence is deafening, and telling. Besides, you don’t even have to have IT experience to realize the impossibility of physically touching thousands of machines in hundreds of jurisdictions. Which is why you didn’t answer my question, because it is impossible. Undoubtably you will keep spreading this CT but unless you can answer the “how” you will continue to spin your wheels.

Think. Again.

(17,926 posts)
225. Oh, and you can speak for the entire election security community...
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 12:51 PM
Friday

...minus the authors of the letter, of course.

Fascinating.

Abnredleg

(936 posts)
227. Your diversion tactics aren't working
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 02:06 PM
Friday

I’m not claiming to speak for the entire security community but rather pointing out their complete silence. Don’t you think they would be over this if it was true? They are silent, along with the campaign, the SOS’s, and the DOJ. Why is that? Why is it that only a few people on the Internet are running around with their hair on fire?

I don’t expect an answer, just more diversion. The fact that you refuse to answer questions is telling, don’t you think.

Abnredleg

(936 posts)
229. I accept your concession
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 02:27 PM
Friday

I figured if I asked enough questions you couldn’t answer you would move to the next step, which is immature insults.

Abnredleg

(936 posts)
259. One concession is enough
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 05:22 PM
Friday

I understand your predicament, being asked questions that you can’t answer, but that’s the price you pay for pushing conspiracies, particularly those that aren’t gaining traction.

NJCher

(37,864 posts)
261. they're sure as hell not going to tell you
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 05:29 PM
Friday
Don’t you think they would be over this if it was true?

abnredleg, poster at DU.

I mean, WTF?! Do you not know you don't go spilling your guts about what you've found when there's an investigation?

Cheebus. Talk about being born yesterday.

Abnredleg

(936 posts)
262. Campaigns and parties leak like sieves
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 05:38 PM
Friday

So yes, it would be in the public realm by now, especially given the tight time constraints. And given we are talking about multiple audits in multiple jurisdictions, there many people involved in post election certification processes. NO ONE is making a claim of fraud except random poster on the Internets. The entire Democratic Party has moved on - it’s time for DU to do the same. What do you know that the entire Democratic establishment doesn’t?

Jarqui

(10,487 posts)
222. How do we know that the Harris campaign hasn't picked up things with their own data?
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 12:34 PM
Friday

What I had advocated was just that: the campaigns look for signs in their own data or exit polls of where they should look closer.

You spot audit during lower level candidate recounts.
You have folks follow up on the mail-in or provisional ballot.
You review the letter to Shapiro or Harris documenting concerns.
You might ask election/voting experts like Greg Palast their thoughts.

You review that, get your 'clues' and check into those. Many of the battleground states had Dem Governors and Sec of State - they could do some of the checking.

If someone played with machine count software, how would we know if they don't do a hand recount?

To presume "it's all ok, we don't have to look" with someone who was in a desperate situation and crooked like Trump, I think that is pretty shaky.

There is absolutely no harm in that kind of checking. In an ideal world, they find nothing wrong.
But they've done some due diligence to verify and make sure nothing sinister happened.

Grins

(7,883 posts)
208. It's a bit late for this.
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 11:50 AM
Friday

NOTHING is going to happen in the 63 odd days left before the transition of power. Nor in the next four years.

Response to Grins (Reply #208)

Kid Berwyn

(17,974 posts)
211. How many votes were cast? How many were rejected?
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 11:55 AM
Friday

People in Michigan are wondering, "WTF?"

People in Pennsylvania are wondering, "WTF?"

People in Wisconsin are wondering, "WTF?"

People in Georgia are wondering, "WTF?"

People in North Carolina are wondering, "WTF?"

People all across the country are wondering, "WTF?"

As the GOP is known to cheat, I'll go with the WTF crowd and the letter writers.


Response to Kid Berwyn (Reply #211)

lapfog_1

(30,143 posts)
212. for everyone on this thread
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 11:57 AM
Friday

that says, without evidence, the elections were secure... the audits would have shown problems...

Let me explain one more time. If you walked into a voting booth... and in front of you is a computer screen... and you make your selections and hit enter or vote... and you go home. There is NO audit none that can prove that how you voted is recorded correctly and tabulated correctly and reported to the state correctly, etc. None that cannot be fooled by clever enough hackers, especially those that have years to to create the hack and enough resources to corrupt enough machines. And no it doesn't matter if that voting machine is connected to anything... or where the summary of the votes is carried on USB drives to some other place where it is transmitted to the elections office, etc.

If you voted by mail with a paper ballot... or filled out a paper ballot ( like I did ) and dropped it in a drop box and then is was scanned by a tabulator... and essentially at that point enters a "voting machine"... unless the audit gets all of the paper ballots and counts them BY HAND... at least a few times... and the vote totals are compared by hand to the reported vote totals... there is no audit a decent hacker can't fake out.

Trump will win the vote in the swing states by, say, 4 percent? That means only 2 percent of the vote has to be switched from Kamala to Trump. There was no red wave in the House... they end up with what a handful of House seats for their majority? And the Senate by 1 or 2 seats in an election that favored Republicans gaining seats anyway ( in 2 years it will favor Democrats ). Any hack that is sophisticated would not flip every vote... not every voting machine needs to be hacked. In fact you want to install a hack on only a few machines... and have the hack clean up after the vote is over... so that it check out fine and any test run after the fact shows only what is expected.

This is not to say that there is evidence this happened. But to say "it is possible".

Response to lapfog_1 (Reply #212)

DiamondShark

(1,085 posts)
249. 98% of votes were cast by paper ballot.
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 04:44 PM
Friday

Oh and we never used USB drives to transfer voter data. USB drives are not secure and don't have an audit trail.

Come apply as a tabulator, pay is good and you don't have to deal with IT issues, that's what the IT team is for.

Babajida

(52 posts)
241. Here is an LA Times article from last March about Trump's team accessing voting machines
Fri Nov 15, 2024, 04:05 PM
Friday

Same issue this letter talks about.

Are the feds ignoring Trump allies' multi-state effort to access election systems? Experts raise alarms for 2024
https://www.yahoo.com/news/anyone-investigating-trump-allies-multi-100017273.html

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