General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsCan we at least not cheer for concentration camps to "teach minorities a lesson"
In regards to those who didn't vote the way we liked?
Like, do people really not hear and see themselves right now? Not only have I seen that statement, there are people reccing the stuff.
I cannot believe the shit I am reading.
It feels like there's a divide here between "liberal out of principle" and "liberal out of tribalism" that's making itself known in rather ugly fashion.
ananda
(30,820 posts)???
Sympthsical
(10,231 posts)But it's generally good advice all around to not hope for that sort of thing.
ananda
(30,820 posts)Oh dear.
Prairie Gates
(3,057 posts)It's probably easier to stay within the letter.
Hippasus
(54 posts)Last edited Thu Nov 14, 2024, 08:59 AM - Edit history (1)
I wont link to it, but I will quote from it.
These are our families folks are talking about.
I now find myself hoping more and more that Trump does go after ALL Latinos and starts putting them in camps.
yardwork
(64,357 posts)If a jury didn't hide it, you could email it to EarlG. That post is not ok.
Response to yardwork (Reply #25)
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Hippasus
(54 posts)My alert went to the admins, since it stood for more than 24 hours (and even got supporting replies).
WillowTree
(5,335 posts)Get a grip, people!!
Sequoia
(12,535 posts)And was shocked to see it on DU. Not to mention feeling awful. My whole neighborhood would become a ghost town.
Response to Sequoia (Reply #50)
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BamaRefugee
(3,706 posts)Nothing to cheer about.
Sympthsical
(10,231 posts)The people spinning these dark fantasies of minorities being "taught" aren't generally of the demographic persuasion that will be subjected to all this teaching.
WillowTree
(5,335 posts)hlthe2b
(106,360 posts)I live in the West and most of our Hispanic population are Mexican Americans that I live and work with.
It still surprises me how little many understand about those whose culture and language is first and foremost Spanish/Hispanic of some dialect and origin. Certainly not a monolith any more than most other Americans are.
Eko
(8,492 posts)Disgusting.
sarisataka
(21,000 posts)so openly stated.
I can't say I am very surprised however.
leftstreet
(36,295 posts)Hippasus
(54 posts)
a history lesson might be in order.
Id be inclined to rewind some five centuries here in America.
Renew Deal
(82,930 posts)It is simple geography and those that lived in America didnt know it.
Hippasus
(54 posts)Last edited Thu Nov 14, 2024, 02:19 PM - Edit history (1)
Im not sure of your point.
Renew Deal
(82,930 posts)In what ways, specifically, is a history lesson (that you havent even heard!) flawed?
And please be specific.
Renew Deal
(82,930 posts)It's a map, claiming to be the map from 500 years ago. The name America was given to what is now South America. The people that actually lived there had no knowledge or awareness of the Europeans renaming the territory.
Hippasus
(54 posts)
calling the map that my wife grew up with a history lesson.
Is the map that you grew up with a history lesson?
Or is it just a part of your culture?
Are you simply upset that I might mean something different when I say here in America than you might mean?
I did post a map to clarify my meaning.
But I have not (yet!) posted anything resembling a history lesson. I merely pointed out that some folks could benefit from one.
Hippasus
(54 posts)Last edited Thu Nov 14, 2024, 12:35 PM - Edit history (1)
My wifes ancestors started running away from their masters some five centuries ago after being kidnapped in Africa and brought here to America.
Slaves also sought freedom extra-legally, and flight was typical across the Pacific lowlands. Some escaped slaves traveled as far as the cities while others formed maroon communities, or palenques, along the margins of the mining region. The most important palenque that was formed within the jurisdiction of Popayán was located east of the Pacific mines, in the Patía River Valley. This palenque was significant because it evolved into a town that, as we shall see in later chapters, was central to the royalist defense of Popayán during the wars of independence. Runaways settled in a place called "El Castigo," taking advantage of the frontier area around the Patía River Valley north of Pasto and east of Barbacoas, which was not colonized by the Spanish until the 1720s. By then, when exploration of the area and land titling began to take place, the palenque was populated mostly by renegade whites and runaway slaves from the mines of Barbacoas and Iscuandé and from the haciendas in the Cauca River Valley. During this period Spanish colonial officials unsuccessfully attempted to conquer or destroy this palenque.
Yet, as occured in the neighboring palenques of Esmeraldes and Baudó, and in other runaway communities in colonial contexts, the inhabitants of El Castigo sought the presense of representatives of the church in their territory. Between 1731 and 1732, they sent three messengers to the city of Pasto to request that a Priest visit Nachao and Nalgua, two towns they had established, each of which had built a church within its boundries. This request exposed their strategy of aligning their community with the Catholic precepts that were central to social and political life in Popayán.
The Quito Audiencia tried to take advantage of the maroons' interest in the church, attempting to co-opt the palenque into establishing civil government in the area in exchange for a pardon from the state. The runaway community resisted the audencia's attempt to include them within its juristiction (reducción) but succeeded in securing a permanent priest for their settlement. Morover, the Popayán municipal council conceeded their right to name two people from the palenque to "administer justice in the name of His Magisty to all the individuals who currently are congregated in those towns," with the condition that they not admit any more runaways to the community, detaining the fugitives and informing the Popayán authorities to their presence. Thus, the maroons of Patía not only used religion for the purpose of community building; they also seem to have preferred to establish a relationship with the church rather than with the civil authorities.
In the Hispanic context, the crown promoted a corporate organization of society, and thus collective rights could be secured to a greater extent than individual rights. This constituted an incentive for enslaved and free blacks to link their legal strategies to the colonial corporate logic. Indeed, the politics of freedom and community building among free people of African descent pivoted around the struggle to gain recognition, aquire political rights, and overcome racist assumptions of the larger society. During the eighteenth century, those goals coincided with the crown's interest in integrating the maroons into society - to "reduce" the community of runaways to legitimate towns - by negociating and extending certain concessions in exchage for their professed loyalty. The integration of free blacks in to civil life reminds us that maroon communities were forged within the colonial would and not outside it.
In Popayán, free and enslaved blacks of Africal origin and descent upheld justice through their underlying pattern of engagement with imperial legal institutions. This was visible in instances when, as in Patía, maroons negociated their conditions of integration into colonial society. Yet legal freedom was not the only goal of the enslaved. As we will see next, in the Pacific mining region, garnering greater rights within the institution of slavery may have been their most realistic goal.
(pages 104-106)
Indian and Slave Royalists in the Age of Revolution: Reform, Revolution, and Royalism in the Northern Andes, 17801825 (Cambridge Latin American Studies, Series Number 102)
by Marcela Echeverri
SoFlaBro
(3,348 posts)For those that voted against Orange Fuckstain that get rounded up, I feel for them. Hate that they will be exposed to this.
WhiskeyGrinder
(23,851 posts)B.See
(3,620 posts)I don't get it. What are you trying to say?
WhiskeyGrinder
(23,851 posts)B.See
(3,620 posts)I've heard of A phrase, but I wouldn't want to jump to any conclusions as to what you're saying.
Response to B.See (Reply #63)
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B.See
(3,620 posts)the irony here?
In response to the op, who rightfully condemned wishing harm to all Latinos because of the vote of some,
you've just implied that all liberals are fascists.
WhiskeyGrinder
(23,851 posts)yardwork
(64,357 posts)Is it on the masthead of Jacobin?
It's very silly.
WhiskeyGrinder
(23,851 posts)GusBob
(7,535 posts)I respect your posts I do
But in my social media sphere, the MAGAts are saying we are hoping for failures This post kinda sounds like that
No its more like a serious warning, youll get what you voted for alright
and there is we told ya so factor which will leave a bad taste all around
Sympthsical
(10,231 posts)That was one of the sentiments shared that I had in mind.
You're correct. Cheering and predicting are different things.
But I have seen cheering - hoping for pain inflicted, not only on Trump voters, but wider populations so lessons can be learned. These thoughts expressed in vindictive tones of gleeful malice.
I dunno what that is. But it's not liberal to me.
GusBob
(7,535 posts)I think your word was splenetic
We need more Rage Against The Machine right now
Not Neil Diamond
Sympthsical
(10,231 posts)And it's not something I'm fond of.
If that's scolding or tut-tutting, so be it. We're in a serious inflection point in history, and serious matters require serious adults.
This trend that people my age (and older) should just shout into the void like adolescents when their will has been thwarted is not my favorite social development over the past twenty or so years.
It gets normalized. It gets cheered. It gets reinforced. And when called out, it gets that Oprahesque, "Everyone's feelings are valid as they are living their truth in the spirit of their being . . ."
No. Stop that stuff. Pretend we're grown ups with executive function for a change. It's more productive. And if we can't draw the line at "Actively wishing for death to make your online political point" then maybe our culture has tipped too far.
If I had a political slogan, it'd be Make Behaving Like Normal People Trendy Again.
Hippasus
(54 posts)How exactly does putting my wife in a concentration camp help them get over their upset?
This is tfg level stupidity, is it not?
ck4829
(35,910 posts)ColinC
(10,683 posts)Passages
(1,058 posts)approach has been quite successful. I hope more well-intentioned people realize that and re-think their responses.
IbogaProject
(3,652 posts)Nazis took out more than minorities, they started with the disabled. The term Aspeger's was coined to save high functioning autistics.
Here is an infamous quote,
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak outbecause I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak outbecause I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak outbecause I was not a Jew.
Then they came for meand there was no one left to speak for me.
Martin Niemöller
This quote is attributed to the prominent German pastor Martin Niemöller. It is sometimes mistakenly referred to as a poem.
msfiddlestix
(7,811 posts)Sympthsical
(10,231 posts)And how unacceptable that should be in a Democratic space.
People have embraced some . . . kooky and pretty malicious things while acting out about the election, but I'd like to think there are at least some lines that can still be drawn in all of that.
msfiddlestix
(7,811 posts)and wondered why such gibberish nonsense was given oxygen.
That's how TSF got his free media who enabled him to rise in power swiftly, by aiding him in airing his racist nonsense known as "birtIherism". Not something I want to see here
one individual to be alerted is all that should have been required. in my view.
Sympthsical
(10,231 posts)And such sentiments had plenty of recs to go along with them.
It is what it is. But that is definitely something I'm going to throw a spotlight on, even if it was just one lone person.
Some things are shitty enough that putting them on blast is the only appropriate course.
Response to Sympthsical (Reply #41)
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Baitball Blogger
(48,049 posts)But that's the level of everyone's frustration.
The fact is, that some people are visual learners. And it is going to be more painful than therapeutic to watch their learning curves rise.
The reality is, that when they do recognize what they did, they are going to think that no one told them and there was no way to predict such a negative outcome. And then, they will pick a leader they believe in, who will probably tell them everything that we've been telling them.
ismnotwasm
(42,455 posts)Why someone would post that is not something I understand
Iggo
(48,268 posts)They want it to happen to a whole bunch of innocent people.
And to my family.
And to me.
They want to inflict as much pain on as many people as possible to teach em some kind of lesson.
Sounds very familiar. And its not okay.
TheKentuckian
(26,231 posts)Why people think they get to chuck black people, Jews, and gay folks under every bus that passes but we must put everyone else first, I cannot guess.
WE WERE FUCKING INNOCENT TOO AND NO ONE GIVES A FLYING FUCK WHAT HAPPENS TO US.
We best be kindly as can be and if eggs are the right price at the right time then maybe...just maybe we won't need to be shat on.
Response to TheKentuckian (Reply #45)
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ForgedCrank
(2,198 posts)that there are those who actually believed Trump is Hitler (and a whole bunch of other ridiculous nonsense), and those who just can't give it up for whatever reason even though they know it is just political hyperbole.
Regardless, both are doing damage and causing a lot of people a lot of unnecessary anguish. I really wish they would stop. There are people here who actually think they are going to be hunted down or killed, or starved to death through elimination of government entitlements. This talk is really scaring some people and it shouldn't be like this.
Trump may be a total jackass, but almost none of these outrageous predictions will actually happen. Trust me, there will be plenty of Trump policy initiatives to piss us off over the next 4 years, so we don't need to keep repeating all of this baloney.
Anza404
(40 posts)Show me what/where hyperbole of what he says he will do to transgender people? I don't think he will round us up in camps just legislate and EO us out of existence.
ForgedCrank
(2,198 posts)to you to sort it out for yourself.
And what does it even mean to "legislate and EO us out of existence"? Sounds like a David Copperfield trick or something.
Anza404
(40 posts)Is literally why dem's lost this election instead of taking my concerns as real you mock people.
Will not get my vote again.
Mods delete my account please.
ForgedCrank
(2,198 posts)is that you can't just say stuff and expect it to be taken seriously. So my question remains, what does it mean to be "legislated and EO out of existence"? All I see is a line that keeps getting repeated.
And I present to you the fact that I make this sort of post as evidence of the exact opposite of your assertions. I DO care, people are being scared to death and it's all unnecessary. In fact, I'd call it downright cruel. You shouldn't have to sit around worrying about this garbage.
Anza404
(40 posts)You said what the orange menace say is hyperbole. In regards to transgender people we do not believe it is he will and republicans in congress will use legislation you can find it here https://www.aclu.org/legislative-attacks-on-lgbtq-rights-2024 and we as day 1 executive orders to make life a living hell for LGBTQ people transgender people more so than others in that group.
So i ask again what part of the agenda Trump and republicans have for transgender people is hyperbole... I know full well of people being scared to death i have lost 3 friends to suicide since Nov 7. The end goal is shove us back in the closet, jail us or kill us with suicide. Hence even if we still are around our existence in life,school,work,government and the world will not be as ourselves.
you, it's not for me to do. All you sent was an ACLU link to a lot of bills. How many of them have you actually read?
Well, I read a couple. First on the list, Alabama SB129. There is nothing in there that "legislates us out of existence". It simply prohibits government entities from promoting "divisive concepts". This is of absolutely no threat to anyone other than someone who may be wishing to advocate for or against these things in a public school or other state level government capacity. In other words, they can't be either pro or anti, and it's none of their business to get involved in it. Did you actually read it? Or just repeat what someone told you about it? Oddly enough, this is the sort of legislation that the ACLU would generally support, and that is prohibiting government from being involved at all in such matters.
Next on the list, Alaska HB174. Same deal, no one is being legislated out of existence. Did you even read it?
Anyway, I'm not reading every single one of those bills and laws. You can do that yourself and come back if you find anything to substantiate the claim that you won't be in existence anymore because of Trump or one of his jackass cronies.There will be things in some of those laws or bills that I disagree with, I'm certain of it. But I deal in facts only.
I hate to see people so upset over what amounts to manipulative headlines and gossip. It's just mean. Don't confuse my stance as pro or anti anything. There are most certainly anti-trans people among us because even assholes have opinions. That's something I don't deny because it's fact, and I have no control over assholes. But none of that translates into laws or EO's that eliminate people.
Anza404
(40 posts)I have read a decent number of them they range from defining only 2 sex's to restricting access to accurate ID's and gender markers to drag bans,book bans, banning health care for minors, bans on bathrooms, bans on sports, forcing schools to out kids to dangerous parents and much much more the republicans and the dumb orange fucker has planned.
All of this is just a start and what i am getting from you is don't worry about it none of it is bad.
You literally are giving me no good reason to vote at all. Like if everything is going to be just fine for trans people why care who is elected?
I voted democrat since i could vote with Al Gore but no longer i am joining the DSA they are the only ones i see with a consistent message and taking our concerns seriously.
ADMINS for the love of god please delete my fucking account seriously why can we not do this ourselves?
thebigidea
(13,238 posts)Oh no! Let's pretend this is somehow the big problem! Oh no! A few people said something OUTRAGEOUS on an obscure web forum barely visited by anyone in a lucrative demographic! ALERT THE MEDIA! GET THE SMELLING SALTS!
THE FAINTING COUCH?!?! WHERE IS IT? Oh I have the vapors! OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
The important thing is that you get to feel superior and lecture people. And boy, you are relishing that tut-tut, aren't you?
It's just venting. Don't be fucking silly.
W_HAMILTON
(8,493 posts)Too bad they didn't seem to care much back when they were depressing Democratic turnout by tsk‐tsking Democrats for everything they did over the past few years...
Sympthsical
(10,231 posts)People do something extremely politically ill-advised, and someone says, "Hey guys? Maybe stop doing that."
The warning then manifested in real time. You'd think someone would say, "Hey. Maybe I should've stopped doing that." But no! It's "You know who's really at fault? The people who told us to stop doing counterproductive things!"
What is it like over there? It's fascinating to view from afar. Must be extremely pleasant, the world without mirrors.
W_HAMILTON
(8,493 posts)...and hockey assisting (yet again) Trump into the White House should have done more to attack the guy that would be throwing those minorities into concentration camps rather than attacking the only option that could prevent that from happening.
But getting more upset at Democrats posting on a message board than electing fascists after being warned of the fascist things they will do if they take power is VERY on brand for ... them.
Sympthsical
(10,231 posts)I do not identify with power. Power is intended to serve, to be held accountable. It is how a healthy democracy functions and how political entities change and evolve to better serve the people.
Protection of power, deference to it, failure to criticize or hold accountable in any real way gives little incentive to change, to reflect, or to serve.
Telling people they are doing fabulously, no notes, no matter how poorly it is clearly going for us is a path to diminished power and diminished ability to serve the people.
Your viewpoint has won out since 2016.
Look where we are.
If this moment in time is not a clarion call to change this inverted posture of protecting privilege over people, then things cannot and will not improve. I've heard your viewpoint, I've seen your viewpoint take precedence in practice this entire past decade.
It has failed. And it has no power anymore. Grouse about it at will, but facts are unchangeable things and this deference is over, realized or not.
W_HAMILTON
(8,493 posts)Not sure what the word salad about power and deference has anything to do with anything -- you aren't still on about the 2016 Democratic primary being """rigged,""" are you? -- but the only thing that is over is any hope for a more progressive America anytime in the next couple of decades. The Republican-dominated Supreme Court will see to that.
Hope those that claimed to be """progressive allies""" on the left while shivving good ACTUAL progressive Democrats in the back in 2016 and 2024 are happy with themselves. They need to identify with a new nickname because they sure as hell ain't progressive if TWICE they helped Trump take power over vastly superior progressive Democrats running on vastly superior progressive platforms.
Nimble_Idea
(2,431 posts)AloeVera
(1,950 posts)I'm still reeling from what I've been reading.
Your o/p is a breath of fresh air and sanity.
Sympthsical
(10,231 posts)And make no secret of that.
But I'm not joining a minority pile-on for funsies. Newp.
It reminds me a little of when Prop 8 passed in California back in 2008, and somehow it managed to turn it into an LGBT vs. Black Community royal rumble. It's like, "Can we not?"
AloeVera
(1,950 posts)Blue Full Moon
(1,165 posts)ecstatic
(34,372 posts)First of all, none of us are necessarily immune from this shit. Once cops are granted the power to start tossing people into camps, we're all at risk, whether we're here legally or not. We could all end up in camps.
It's not really about cheering for someone else to end up in a camp. It's about idiots being forced to face the consequences of their actions, and yes, we are potentially collateral damage as well. So it's not a happy ending for anyone really.
And, to be clear, the racial minorities who voted for trump are not the only people who voted against their own interests. White people are still the majority in this country and voted overwhelmingly for tRump, including white women. So we'll see a lot more bleed outs and deaths among that group as well. And, as a pre-menopause woman myself, I could end up dying as well.
Small businesses might be bankrupted due to tariffs. 401K accounts might get depleted from trump and eloon manipulating the markets. The list of potential FAFO fallout goes on and on.
I don't feel glee thinking about any of this. Just anger. It's a really fucked up situation and I hate that so many selfish fucking STUPID assholes have put us in this situation.