I'm surprised at how little discussion there is questioning the results.

[garybeck]

I realize people who don't understand voting and election technology are going to say i'm a foolish conspiracy theorist. Go ahead i can take it.

But I know there are enough people here at DU who have studied election technology. There are experts in the field reading this. We've been through this before.

It's not a foolish conspiracy theory. Questioning the results is healthy. Especially considering the fact that we have been warned by the world's most prominent computer security experts. They told us that our election system is "has significant security vulnerabilities."



You can laugh and brush it off and say what you will. the truth is, our election system is hackable. It's been demonstrated and documented many times by the world's best, and not much has been done.

Before you say "the democratic party would be on top of this" or "the election system is not connected to the internet" ... take a deep breath. It doesn't have to be through the internet. and just because the democratic party doesn't know about computer security, it doesn't mean anything one way or another.

You're not a conspiracy theorist if you are simply asking questions.
I"m not suggesting the election was definitely stolen.
I am saying it smells fishy.

we need to be asking ourselves some serious questions like:

Are we really supposed to believe that millions of less people voted this time than last?
Are we really supposed to believe that trump got more support this time than last time, and he actually got the popular vote this time which he never has before, when by all accounts his support has diminished over the last 4 years?
Why were so many experts like Lichtman wrong? He's called every election correct in the last several decades. Michael Moore who predicted Trump victory in 2016 when no one else was, had called it for Harris. many others.
If anyone on this planet could hack the system, who could? Perhaps the richest person in the world owns multiple high tech companies and was literally campaigning for Trump?
If criminals can hack into the country's hospital system and basically shut down multiple hospitals and doctors offices for weeks, just for a ransom, why do we believe hacking the election system is impossible?
Which is more likely -- millions of people voting in ways that were not predicted, or just one thing - the richest person on the planet with access to every technology known, and who was campaigning for Trump, got involved. One of those two things happened.
Why was Trump so despondent the last few weeks? He seemed to not care about votes. He made zero attempt to move towards the center, which is what every candidate does when they need votes. he cancelled events and didn't seem to care. Did he know something we don't know?
Enthusiasm for Harris was very high. we all saw it. we are being told to just toss that out the window. it was a mirage. the enthusiasm was dismal for trump.

And, importantly:

if you had unlimited money and access to literally every technology on the planet, would it be possible to hack the election system?
the answer to that, we already know is yes. the experts have told us this time and time again. Here is a list of experts who signed on to the Brennan Report:



those of us who are expressing concern are not just making this up. and we're not foolish. Fools refuse to look at facts. Smart people investigate objectively with an open mind.
we've been warned by the greatest computer security experts on the planet.

[Irish_Dem]

1. We are supposed to believe that ruthless, vicious, desperate psychopaths followed the rules and laws.

Trump terrified of going to prison and losing his precious wealth.

Putin, losing the war in Ukraine, his economy in shambles, he may lose his power.
And his dream of being a global superpower.

Trump a long time criminal and rapist.

Putin a vicious and ruthless psychopath known for his horrendous crimes.
Gave his soldiers invading Ukraine huge amounts of booze and Viagra with orders to rape
as many civilians as possible, mostly women and children. To send a message to Ukraine.

The GOP has stolen elections in the past, cheated and are ruthless sociopaths too.

The Trump/Putin/GOP are a crime syndicate, not a political party.

And we are supposed to believe there was no cheating in this election.

The American people are beyond naive. It is self destructive ignorance.

[Dem4life1234]

6. All of this!

Thank you!

I don't buy that bullshit of fair elections not one bit.

Everyone I know hates his guts.

[Irish_Dem]

13. It is basic psych profiling and crime scene analysis.

The leading suspects are ruthless criminals.
And sure they followed the rules and laws.

[LSparkle]

27. Hear, here (is that right?)

My first thought was it was stolen — just a few tweaks in the right places and we’re stuck in a fascist nightmare. It makes no sense based on all appearances from JUST ONE WEEK AGO. They’re going to memory hole this if we don’t try and do something ...

[dchill]

85. They'll "memory hole this" because the media have already SPOKEN.

The US media are the real crisis actors.

[LSparkle]

96. Agreed. The media wanted our eyeballs not to inform us

[Mr. Evil]

66. Here's another possibility.

Say that, in some swing states the SoS or whoever is in charge of certifying the vote count goes to lunch one day before the election and is confronted by a Russian mob member and 2 of his goons. They show you a picture of your family. They show you your phone number and home address. Then, in a calm yet, intimidating fashion, they tell you Trump wins your state.

What are you going to do? Call the FBI? They'll know it. They have almost unlimited resources available to them and have absolutely no fear. They'll disappear as quickly as they appeared. They could even sweeten the pot and hand you a bag of money. They have plenty.

TSF is a known and proven pathological liar and cheat. But, all of a sudden, this election was totally legit? Consider the players.

[Irish_Dem]

72. I am fairly certain that a version of this scenario has occurred with certain members of congress.

And other federal employees.

We know Putin and the GOP are quite capable of it.

[brush]

84. trump and Johnson's little secret. And trump doubling down on garbage Latinos...

in the last days before the election. And also saying he doesn't need votes as he has enough.

Sure sounds like they knew something.

Yeah sure trump won all the swing states despite what the polls said, and hundreds of thousands of votes seem to have disappeared as his and Harris' vote totals were way less that in 2020.

What's up with that? We're just supposed to believe that many people decided to stay home in the biggest election of our lifetimes?

I may have been borne at night, but not last night.

[Irish_Dem]

127. Exactly.

Same here. I was born at night. But not last night.

[brush]

129. Yep, and now we have to deal with a senile-adjacent, bloviating fool delivering mental weave for 4 years.

And I think Vance is just waiting to use the 25th Amendment to take over...the the rest of the trumper cabinet will approve.

[Irish_Dem]

131. They don't have to invoke the 25th.

Keep giving Trump his adderall, cocaine, downers, a lovely drug cocktail
and tell him whatever he wants to hear.

Keep him busy with hookers, golf, and dreams of becoming the richest man in the world.

While the psychopath billionaires and PutinGOP call all the shots.

[brush]

132. God, we are so in trouble.

[The_REAL_Ecumenist]

134. "...and in front of a speeding turnip truck.."

EOM

[LAS14]

91. I'll take my cues from the DNC and the Harris/Walz campaign. I sure wish the left...

.. would climb out of this conspiracy theory hole that's being dug.

[Irish_Dem]

93. I stand by my psychological profiling.

I am a trained PhD mental health professional, retired.
Specialty in diagnosis and assessment.
Forensic experience.
Have worked on active and cold cases.

The Dem leaders are not going to say any of this.
They cannot do it. And you know why.

[The_REAL_Ecumenist]

135. CONSPIRACY THEORY? REALLY?!! Well, what about the VERBATIM statement give by Nikolai Patrushev, a member of pootie's

inner circle, (there have sources that say that Patrushev is now the head of Russian Intelligence. He was formally the Secretary of the Security Counsel) & this was reported on NEWSWEEK. Here's an excerpt from the article

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/donald-trump-has-obligations-to-those-who-brought-him-to-power-putin-ally/ar-AA1tX1h3?ocid=B


Patrushev said: "To achieve success in the elections, Donald Trump relied on certain forces to which he has corresponding obligations. And as a responsible person, he will be obliged to fulfill them.

[lostnfound]

108. Flipped votes were documented on BMDs in PA in November 2023

Unintentional clerical error but the result was that when the voter selected candidate A on the screen, candidate B was coded into the bar code, which was then read as B by tabulators.

BMDs - ballot marking devices — are used in 20 of PA’s 67 counties. Here’s a letter that explains what happened in November 2023.

https://stategovernment.pasenategop.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/141/2024/03/Skoglund_PA_Sen_Govt_Cmte_Hearing_Testimony.pdf

Northhampton County is one of 20 counties that requires all in-person voters to use BMDs. On Election Day, their BMD’s printed ballots with the opposite of what some voters selected on the touchscreen….Some polling places did not notice and kept voting. Some told voters to come back later.
To get the ballot text to match the screen, some voters were advised to select the opposite of their vote choices on the touchscreen. That is creative and understandable, but tragic. The bar code and the ballot text did not match, and the barcode was counted. The ballot text that voters could see was irrelevant. Any voters who tried to work around the problem had their votes counted against their preferences.


As an aside, hand counting ballots is not permitted, at least not by township election judges. I do not know whether the issue is security or its opposite, but publicly visible hand counting is tried and true method. https://www.democracydocket.com/news-alerts/judge-says-pennsylvania-township-cannot-conduct-hand-count-of-ballots/

[Irish_Dem]

109. I am sure the Russian/Chinese military hackers were able to figure all of this out.

Small piece by small piece.
No one thing made the difference.
But adding it all up did.

[jimfields33]

126. We heard for four years that the election was stolen. I doubt the public wants to hear it another four

especially since the battleground states are run by the Democratic Party at the top leadership.

[Think. Again.]

157. Four years ago a house down the block burned down...

...so I shouldn't call the fire dept. if my house catches fire now?

How weird.

[Irish_Dem]

163. The public appears to want to hear only lies. Not the truth.

[Think. Again.]

155. Well said.

[Jarqui]

2. I agree. I weighed in a couple of times already

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=19701477

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=19697500

They should thoroughly check the results.

[garybeck]

11. the question is what does "thoroughly check" mean

seriously, if this going anywhere we need the stars to align

we need a whistleblower

we need some super high tech people who are organized, like Anonymous

we need some people in the media who are willing to risk their careers

we need some Secretaries of State in swing states that went for Trump

and a whole lot more

[tritsofme]

16. Trump people could have given this same pep-talk four years ago.

[dchill]

86. You really can't say that.

[TheKentuckian]

90. Okay, then what is the purpose of the discussion?

But no, I'm not intending to be saying that at all but rather asking why others are inferring such?

The conspiracy proposed is pretty all encompassing.

Apparently, the notion is that Harris, Biden, Whitmer, Shapiro, Evers, and Cooper are either in league with Chump or too oblivious to even raise a peep as he has stolen the elections in their states and ripped off the office from Kamala.

This should require more support than "I just cannot believe..." or "My gut says..." or "What about Trump seeming so confident" or "We had more votes last time so where did they go".

These folks are almost a carbon copy of the MAGA loons doing the same shit in Arizona and Georgia in 2020 "certain" Doucey and Kemp were in the "Deep State" and cheated for Biden.

[Think. Again.]

158. You do understand that evidence you are requiring for audits and recounts...

...can only be found by doin the audits and recounts others are calling for, right?

[Jarqui]

36. Recounts in all close races is a start

Trump launched 61 court cases - some of that might turn up evidence in discovery

In some states, candidates can get recounts if they pay for them (ie Wisconsin - Trump did that in specific areas)

A Senate inquiry of some aspect(s) of the election including subpoenas (clock might run out ..).

Folks individually checking their ballot got counted and reporting if it didn't.

State level - a lot of the battleground states had Dem governors and Sec of State. They could look into issues.

This person wrote Gov Shapiro about his concerns
https://spoutible.com/thread/37794013
I do not know how credible his claims are but things like that can justify authorities looking into them.

Any formal complaints filed.

The Russian bomb scares - which Shapiro is looking into
The late purge of voters
FEC violations

Greg Palast concerns

Some integrity checks from the data - for example: recent internal campaign polls vs actual results - what districts look out of place - to target?

That is a bit of a scatter gun list off the top of my head. I'm sure they could come up with a more comprehensive, better quality list.

Harris isn't going to say anything but I bet some of her people are looking.

[Jarqui]

161. There are a variety of things that could be involved

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=19725250

That is a first pass. Whatever shakes out from that is where you would dig deeper.

There are some alleged experts who have written Shapiro & Harris that we are aware of.
Potentially others.
Secretaries of State can look into those

If they are finding anomalies, the people around them become potential whistleblowers.

[kelly1mm]

3. Two main reasons IMO. 1) We spent the last 4 years deriding/mocking/ridiculing

election denialism from the R side. Looks more than a bit hypocritical to use many of the same arguments in this election that they used in the last.
2) Prior to the election the Ds were ensuring the public about how secure the elections would be, and in fact had made significant improvements over 2020.

[spooky3]

5. Rs continued to deny reality AFTER investigations were complete

And courts, even those with Trump judges, rejected their claims.

Here, before all votes have been counted, and certainly no investigations were undertaken, people are raising legitimate questions, not making baseless claims.

[Dem4life1234]

10. And that is the difference between us and them

Their claims are baseless, lies, ours is not.

Why did he tell his nutty supporters they won't worry about voting again not once but several times?

[TheKentuckian]

21. I guess highly circumstantial to very speculative is a notch or two above baseless

"I refuse to believe..." is not a case though.

[kelly1mm]

46. We were deriding/mocking/ridiculing way before the investigations/court cases were completed

for good reason, their claims were overwhelmingly without merit. Unfortunately so are the claims being put forward by our side now.

We lost. We need to examine why and if we can course correct. We REALLY need to examine how we can outraise/outspend President Trump 3-1 and still lose.

[spooky3]

64. We disagree. Nt

[garybeck]

7. i agree and I think that was done on purpose

not so much the Dems doing it on purpose but they played into it.

remember, Trump has a history of doing stuff like this and it's orwellian really. whenever you are doing something, accuse someone else of it. then your ass is covered. he does it all the time.

[pnwmom]

40. And they went through 60 court cases. The AP called this election that first night.

Where are our court cases?

[kelly1mm]

47. They can be filed as soon as they can be prepared. And R's will deride/mock/ridicule us just like we did them. nt

[pnwmom]

49. They can mock us all they want. Don't you see how we were set up?

For four years they made us defend the legitimacy of the election systems with their lawsuits.

Now, no matter what evidence might be gathered of vote suppression or hacking in this election, we feel we have to ignore it -- to be consistent.

That's a crock.

[kelly1mm]

52. I do not believe there was any credible reports of hacking if you are referring to vote switching

by the machines or wholesale changing of votes at the tabulation centers.

As to 'voter suppression', if you are referring to people being blocked from entering polling places, then again, no credible evidence of that exists. As to long lines to vote being 'voter suppression' I need to point out that all 3 of the (formerly) Blue Wall states have D state governments.

But by all means, if the DNC or individual candidates want to ask for recounts or file lawsuits, that is their right! I would SERIOUSLY not count on any of those being successful.

[pnwmom]

88. According to Greg Palast, there were 2.7 million rejected provisional ballots last time.

They haven't told us where those ballots were this time or how many of them.

[soandso]

122. I think every court refused to hear their cases

Of course, a lawsuit is different from a recount. From what I see at the Senate level, two states qualify for recounts: MI (Dem won) and PA (Rep won). PA is a .5% spread and MI .4%. It's odd that AP called MI with the closer margin but not PA. Not sure what's going on there.

https://decisiondeskhq.com/results/2024/General/US-Senate/

[Babajida]

154. Stephen Spoonamoore's 11/15 Duty to Warn letter is worth the read

It isn't proof, but goes into great detail raising valid concerns why there should be forensic audits.
https://substack.com/home/post/p-151721941

[Meowmee]

104. There are differences

For one, our candidate was not a fascist lunatic trying to take over the country, and he wasn’t telling people they didn’t have to vote for him because he already had the votes. He also told his cult followers to vote early by paper mail in ballot this time I believe.

[kelly1mm]

110. Being 'a fascist lunatic trying to take over the country' is not evidence of voting irregularities. Can you

point to any significant changes in votes from VP Harris to President Trump in either individual precincts or at the tabulation centers? How does encouraging his voters vote early by mail in ballot lead to election fraud? I believe his statements was that he needed his voters to vote this time and then he wouldn't need their votes after that (which could be read as future plans for election fraud).

[Meowmee]

111. Yes it is imo, it's not normal to tell your voters. They don't have to vote because you already have the votes since whe

When did that become normal…. As far as I know, computer tabulation evidence hasn’t even been investigated, and never will be, but yes, there has been evidence of issues like mail in ballots not being counted and provisional ballots denied. You can read all of the links here and articles elsewhere. As well as bomb threats and voter intimidation. As well as a huge number of d voters apparently staying home- we’re talking about 10 million. Maybe I don’t know what the final counts are yet.

Your comparison between what happened with the Biden election and what happened with the psycho is not valid In my opinion whatever the evidence is. Trump is a criminally insane as you know I’m sure, and is supported by fascists and outside influences who want to take over the country. Actually they’ve succeeded in doing that now pretty much. Which I predicted, but why hand it over to them without a fight?

Because I don’t believe the Biden election was stolen or interfered with does not mean I have to automatically believe that this one wasn’t. And it doesn’t mean I subscribe to ct etc.

[kelly1mm]

112. He said they would not need to vote 'next time'. He said he needed their votes now and then

would not need to vote ever again. That can be read as saying FUTURE elections would be fraudulent, just not this one.

'Trump is a criminally insane as you know I’m sure, and is supported by fascists and outside influences who want to take over the country.' How is this evidence of election fraud?

'bomb threats and voter intimidation' Enough to change the election results?

' As well as a huge number of d voters apparently staying home- we’re talking about 10 million' Again, how is this evidence of election fraud?

[Meowmee]

113. He also said after that first statement several times

That they have the vote and they wouldn’t have to vote because he has the votes in this election, not for ever again. Also, he told them to vote early by mail in ballot, which is exactly opposite of what he told them before I believe.

We are not going to agree on this so there’s no point talking about it anymore. Good luck.😀

[Martin68]

124. Evidence?

[Silent Type]

4. We lost. No recount, court case, protest, etc., is going to change that. We have mid-terms coming.

[SoCalDavidS]

25. We Have Mid-Terms Coming? LOL!!!!!

The new Congress hasn't been seated yet, but WE HAVE MIDTERMS COMING!!

The Supreme Court will be conservative for the next 40+ years, but WE HAVE MIDTERMS COMING!!

DT will be president until January 2029, but WE HAVE MIDTERMS COMING!!

They control Both sides of Congress until January 2027, but WE HAVE MIDTERMS COMING!!

Some of us don't think our votes even matter, or that this country no longer matters, but WE HAVE MIDTERMS COMING!!

The majority of voters COMPLETELY REJECTED EVERYTHING WE STAND FOR AS DEMOCRATS, but hey...THE MIDTERMS ARE COMING!!

[Silent Type]

38. I choose not to sulk.

[pnwmom]

44. It's not about sulking. Do you really think Trump would allow fair mid terms if they succeeded

in flipping 2024?

[Silent Type]

50. Except he didn't flip 2024. If Harris, Biden, etc., believe results were correct, I'll continue to move on. We lost.

[pnwmom]

41. If they got away with fixing this election, why would anything be different in the midterms? nt

[Silent Type]

78. Well, yeah, if the got away with fixing election. But don't think they did and I'm not a GOPer type election denier.

[Clouds Passing]

62. There aren't going to be any more elections. I heard it form the Dump himself.

[lees1975]

8. They've spent eight years softening up public reaction to this argument, and made such a fuss

that their attempting to sabotage it or mess with results is almost a certainty.

But we've also seen people manipulated by the media, which ran a 24 hour a day, 7 day a week commercial for Trump since he left the White House.

[MichMan]

9. Our highest elected officials on a State level have been assuring voters for over three years

that our elections are safe and secure.

In my state, that would be Governor Gretchen Whitmer, Michigan Secretary of State Jocelyn Benson, and Michigan AG Dana Nessel.

Are you saying they are lying, or just clueless ?

[garybeck]

12. the 2nd one

clueless.

[TheKentuckian]

43. Based on what direct evidence? No, a report from twenty years ago nor Lichtmans non scientific keys qualify.

Anything is possible but what specific evidence can be brought to bear here?

"I don't believe it" didn't even work for Chump in court and that SOB gets away with everything.

[garybeck]

58. evidence.....

as I tried to make clear, the issue right now is not evidence. at best we have circumstantial evidence. gut feeling, something smells fishy. polls were wrong. experts were wrong. that is not real evidence.

the point i'm making is, we need people to understand that it is possible to steal elections, because our system is vulnerable.

you can brush off the fact that the Brennan Report is 20 years old but is that scientific? you should ask, what does the report say and what has changed since then?

and it's not just the brennan report. that helped. but it only reinforced what those of us who have been studying it have known.

here it is in a nutshell. hopefully I won't have to type this out too many times:

1) the most vulnerable item in our election system is the memory cards in the optical scanners.
2) every optical scanner has a memory card that is removed from the machine and brought to a central location for reprogramming before every election. the central location in most cases is not secure. It's an office building somewhere.
3) if just ONE memory card for a state or region is infected with a virus, it can be spread to all the memory cards
4) a good hacker could easily make a virus that infects the vote counting software
5) all they would need really is an insider at a handful of these locations where the memory cards are programmed.
6) if a memory card is infected, it would have NO WAY to show it's counting improperly, other than hand counting a precinct and verifying the same results. The test that they do on the machines before the election does not in any way mean it's counting properly during the real election count.
7) the organization Verified Voting tells us that the only way to really verify the count of the optical scanners and prevent fraud is with "risk limiting audits." While some states have instituted audits on their machines, nearly zero have risk limiting audits.

this is just one vulnerability. there are many more, outlined in the Brennan Report and others. you can brush it off because the report is 20 years old or you can ask yourself if anything has changed in 20 years. i can tell you the answer. it has gotten a little better because most of the touchscreen voting machines are gone and they were even worse. But there is a false sense of security with the optical scanners, because of the above info and more. and it's gotten a little better because some states audit their results. but virtually none of them are risk limiting audits, so they are not effective, and more importantly they are not a deterrent.

[keepthemhonestO]

65. Exactly

Some of those states are still using them, knowing full well they are hackable.

Thank you for again , your very well written post.
Can someone find "Truthisall" get him to get back here and crunch these numbers he would show us how off they are. I know he has a website but nothing us up yet for this election year.

TDMSresearch.com

[garybeck]

75. that is a GREAT question! where is TRUTH IS ALL ? n/t

[keepthemhonestO]

79. Well

He got kicked out of here, I don't know if he ever came back.

He las a website tdmsressesrch.com where he crunches the numbers but has not put anything up yet. I imagine this take a while for him to do.
I tried messaging him there but my phone or his website would not hit send.

Please if someone knows how to contact him directly, a bunch of us from the Bush era stealings would love to see him.

[-misanthroptimist]

14. I'll be happy to question the results

And I will...the moment actual evidence is produced. Incredulity, speculation, and the theoretically possible aren't enough to support anything nefarious in the results.

[Fish700]

15. You mean the dozen or so threads on the subject?

Really?

[Martin68]

123. Threads are not evidence.

[Fish700]

143. Didn't say they were. The OP asked why isn't there more discussion when the site is riddled with threads about it.

[ColinC]

17. These things happened in 2020 2016 2012 and 2008 also

Do we assume those results were also rigged? Should Romney and McCain have been president? ?

[garybeck]

22. one mistake people make is

saying well if there is a problem why didn't they do it before. or maybe they did?

the answer is we just don't know.

anything is possible and that is the problem.

the problem is our system is hackable and not secure.

it could come down to money and interest. perhaps romney and mccain could have done something but they didn't. perhaps they didn't have the money for it. or the technology.

all we are saying is, it is possible to steal the election if you have technology and money.

this creates NO conclusions about this election or any other one.

[ColinC]

23. No. It's questioning our democratic process with little to no evidence. Just like Trump did.

If we want to move forward, we need to confront our grief, move past it, and plan for what's ahead.

[Ilikepurple]

101. Trump did this for months it's less than a week later.

I don’t understand how people in this forum should be held to the same standard as a sitting president. Also, it’s one thing to question the outcome of an election and another to try to illegally interfere with the democratic process. If we had independent access to the truth, as you surely, do we probably wouldn’t fret as much. I can’t help but think that those who want to move on the fastest lost the least in this election.

[Zeitghost]

18. Were gonna need a left wing "My Pillow Guy"

If we want to do this right.

[garybeck]

20. more than that :) but yeah! n/t

[elleng]

24. 'foolish' 'stupid' 'vulnerable' appear to be pervasive.

Last edited Mon Nov 11, 2024, 04:35 PM - Edit history (1)

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100219702119

[RandySF]

26. No

[onenote]

28. Sounds like you're saying is Trump's complaints after 2020 should have been taken more seriously and given more credence

My recollection is that we all, justifiably, ridiculed Trump and Giuliani for casting doubts about the results.

[Hope22]

30. In the olden days we watched them get stolen from us right before our eyes.

No pride in not making sure that things are on the up and up! That’s a lot different than standing at the debate podium saying repeatedly that this WILL BE A RIGGED ELECTION!

At any rate the Dems should have a team looking into data anomalies. Haven’t heard much if anything about that….

[hootman]

34. What anomalies? Lower turnout isnt an anomaly.

Look at the vote totals in 2008 & 2012

[Hope22]

69. Then that must be that!

Seriously I have a right to speak.

[Hope22]

70. Here's something to chew on...

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100219704455

[hootman]

100. Starling wasnt used to upload votes. Now we're in conspiracy land.

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2024/nov/12/threads-posts/no-elon-musks-starlink-wasnt-used-to-rig-the-2024/

[pnwmom]

45. His cases were taken seriously. There were 60 court cases. How many have we had? nt

[ElementaryPenguin]

145. onenote, why are you ALWAYS a naysayer about challenging the validity of Trump's suspicious "victory"?

You know damn well that Trump's complaints about 2020 had no merit at all - and you know it is NOT the same thing!!

You're like several others on here that ridiculously shame people on this board for not having sufficient "evidence" - as if detailed evidence is actually going be obtained BEFORE there's an investigation!! There are always concerns and suspicions that inspire investigations.

Do you never get tired of hearing yourself playing your wearying ONENOTE?

[onenote]

148. When there is something credible to react to, I won't be a naysayer.

But I haven't seen anything credible that would lead to an investigation. Hell, folks were demanding an investigation because there were 18 million fewer votes when millions of votes weren't counted.

If there was anything out there warranting an investigation, wouldn't folks like Mark Elias and others be saying something?

I prefer living in the real world. Sorry, if the real world disappoints you.

[LizBeth]

29. Not suppose to question like we were not suppose to challenge Garland.

[ancianita]

31. Just because there are likely ongoing election investigations that can't yet be revealed, nevermind reported.

How can there be more discussion without more facts and information?

So while this Brennan Center for Justice report sounds good, it by itself lays out the problem but isn't solving any part of that problem. I would prefer to believe that current investigators are.

[hootman]

32. ALL the votes haven't been counted. When they are it wont be millions & millions fewer

When all this talk first started Harris had 66 million. She's now over 70 million. Trump still hasnt hit 75

[crud]

33. The rigging happened in plain site

All those videos of the young people waiting in lines is not inspiring. It is voter suppression. Voter suppression. Along with purges, and voter ID's and every other little road block put up (all legal). Along with the RW media empire, and the grifters that run it for profiting off of gullible people. The R's are not under estimating the intelligence of the American people. They plunge into the deepest depth of ignorance to extract the votes they need and the money they crave.

[58Sunliner]

35. I agree 100%. I am astounded that some are accepting this and that the leaders are not making issues of all of this.

[LauraInLA]

37. No, no, no. Sorry. I think at least some of this is being pushed by Russian and other psyops.

[Upthevibe]

39. garybeck

I ABSOLUTELY believe there was malfeasance.

The states were called SO quickly AND we supposedly lost ALL of the swing states....

I just don't know what to say or do. Right now I'm working on not falling into a depression. I've been shockingly calm until today.....

[stillcool]

42. the Brennsn Center

they've been so on top of this issue from the get-go. It's such a great place to learn a little bit about the issues with the security of our voting systems. It's been going on for so long now, and while we as people do not evolve, criminals most certainly do.
I even remember this one....

Votescam: The Stealing of America Paperback – December 15, 1992
by James M. Collier (Author), Kenneth F. Collier (Author)

"Votescam" by James and Kenneth Collier recounts a fascinating and daring investigative reporting project - to figure out how the American voting system works. How can the outcome of elections be predicted so accurately by "exit polls," and how are the votes counted so fast? Why is so much of the process secret?

This is the weirdest, wildest, and most astonishing nonfiction detective story of the 1990s, an explosive investigation that tracks down, confronts, and names the Establishment crooks who elegantly steal the American vote for their own profit. It comes face to face with a Supreme Court justice who rigged a vote fraud case; the most powerful female publisher in America, who won't let her newspapers and TV stations deal with vote-rigging; and a cast of politicians, computer wizards, professors, lawyers, newspeople, aristocrats, CIA operatives, outraged citizens, conspiracy buffs, and crusaders involved in a scandal of unthinkable dimensions.

Hard to believe all these years later, and people refuse to even contemplate, because of the tv.

[Beartracks]

48. But if Repubs go low, Dems go high, and the electorate rewards that with respect and votes. Oh, wait...

No, I think recounts are in order.

It does seem fishy that Trump managed to unexpectedly win all the swing states and "blue wall" states by numbers conveniently outside the margin of error so as to not automatically trigger recounts.

For a party supposedly sooooo concerned with election integrity, the GOP should want to prove these wins were legit.

=================

[JustAnotherGen]

51. I'm not discussing it here

But I am elsewhere.

We deserve at least 64 recounts. At least that many.

[littlemissmartypants]

53. I'm surprised too, garybeck.

VP Harris needed to do better and than Biden and Trump to win but the unaffiliated who we needed didn't vote for her and all the other Democrats we needed who voted for Biden stayed home.

As hard as we worked, as extensive as our ground game was, as much money as we donated and spent...it still wasn't enough to bring out our fellow Democrats who voted for President Biden and have them vote for Kamala. Our own peeps left us high and dry.

The numbers in question:
2020 JB 81,283,501
2024 KH 71,159,488
Difference: 10,124,013

I definitely want to know why!!

What happened to those 10,124,013 MILLION VOTERS??

[kellytore]

54. Until I see proof of fraud, I will stick to my first instinct

We live in a country of fucking idiots. I know I am not supposed to say this, but I am so disengaged from this country right now. My daughter and her family are moving to Portugal and when they get situated I will be right behind. This country will be so fucked over the next several decades and I don't want my last few years watching it go down the drain. As Jeremiah Wright stated, " It's not God bless America, it's God damn America."

[ElementaryPenguin]

146. Both things can be true - we live in a country of many idiots and the vote was hacked as well.

We all knew the convicted felon Trump, who Kamala Harris demolished in their debate - had zero momentum and wasn't going to win that election (and certainly not all of the swing states!)

[AmBlue]

55. We need post-election audits NOW.

I cannot believe this is not a routine practice in our country when we use systems that are known to be vulnerable to malicious attacks and errors. It is entirely doable to randomly select a certain number of precincts in every county and then match the hand count of paper ballots to the digital count. This would be an important safeguard that not only would give voters confidence in our election systems, it would also be a strong deterrent to those that would hack or tamper with our ballot tabulation systems.

Pre-election testing of the programming is done. Why not post-election audits? This is the missing-- and critical-- piece. Why oh why are we not doing this??

[EdmondDantes_]

105. We do have post election audits

https://www.eac.gov/sites/default/files/bestpractices/Election_Audits_Across_the_United_States.pdf

[AmBlue]

117. I stand corrected

I am in Florida and I don't believe we have them here. I did a search and found the following describing the recount and audit rules for the 7 swing states:
https://www.scribd.com/document/787478866/Audits-and-Recounts-in-Seven-2024-Swing-States?secret_password=81PFi4uPyV7ol81fw7w9

I'm actually really relieved to see that so many states are adopting post-election audits as part of their processes. I don't think many folks out there know this.
.

[questionseverything]

144. Recount means run through the machines with a "mix" of hand counting

Again non transparent

[Think. Again.]

159. Most states do not require...

...those audits to be "binding", in other words, the audit results would not be used for anything, the audits would be done only to satisfy the law, and the first-count results would stand unchallenged.

[garybeck]

119. Read the doc you just shared.

Then tell me how many states have risk limiting audits because the experts say those are the only ones that are truly effective.

That doc would be very helpful to someone trying to steal an election. It will help choose which states and precincts you can get away with fudging the numbers without anyone finding out

[Mosby]

56. They are only separated now by 3,587,866 votes.

74.8 vs 71.3

Maybe we should spend more time figuring why so many eligible voters don't vote.

[LearnedHand]

57. Occam's Razor? Yes, it's likely many millions fewer people voted

At all, or only in down-ballot races, or split the ticket. The Gaza War played a huge part, as did the economy people personally experience. And also racism, but I don't think that's as significant as the other two. We can go around telling voters how stupid their vote was, but I certainly don't see that winning people over to the Dems. I think AOC has the right approach, and we should listen too.

This is NOT a statement that we should move right. I think we need to go hard FDR populist left with programs that actually lift people up and put them to work. And for fuck's sake, abandon the cozy relationship with corporations.

And if forensics finds credible evidence of fraud, go there. But how different are we from TSF otherwise if we cry fraud just because we don't like/can't believe the outcome.

[Groundhawg]

59. That's a Republican thing.

[garybeck]

121. No it's not.

We've been doing this since 2004 and by the way some of the people here are responsible for improvements in the security since then. But not enough has been done

[dchill]

60. Totally with you, garybeck!

[keepthemhonestO]

61. Agreed

I want to scream from the rooftop's. I love your arguments for it, well stated case.

[liberalla]

63. I'm with you on this. More information and investigation is needed!

I just keep thinking about this criminal crew, who attempted an unsuccessful coup...

They couldn't leave it to chance.

[ReRe]

67. You have

the most convincing argument I've heard yet. But what can we do about our

candidate conceding too soon? When that happens, no investigation will be

taken seriously. The hint of a question prompts the conspiratorial label.

IMHO, our whole election system needs an overhaul, from top to bottom.

[Hamlette]

68. for the same reason we don't believe the grassy knoll fairytale. n/t

[keepthemhonestO]

71. Its

It's the highest office in the land , in the world anyone would be naive to think they wouldn't try to hack it.

It was Putin with Elon and Trump :I'll help you,you need to give the microphone a blow job so I know I have new material to use against you. 🤷 That's my hunch tin foil hat theory. Musk's part was the starlinx he just sent up around 20 ( likely newly programmed for counting the votes. )

The made the swing so big, too big so no one would think to recount it but it made it too obvious that he couldn't have won that big. No way, I saw the momentum.

[RVN VET71]

73. Trump's numbers were not that far off from 2020

But Harris "lost" 10,000,000 votes from Biden's 2020 vote count. So we are to believe that 10,000,000 fewer people voted this time than in 2020?

You gotta come up with a lot of data and interviews to make me believe this.

Gore won in 2000 and it took the "Supreme" Court to give the nod to Cheney/Bush.

Romney lost in 2012 -- but if you recall, Karl Rove was in disbelief when he heard the results -- ON FOX -- and insisted that he be shown the numbers. Remember Megyn Kelly had to literally take him to whatever the room in Fox actually posted the data. Rove wasn't a little surprised. He was "dammit, I thought we fixed this!" surprise. Kerry won in 2004 but Blackwell (Ohio) fixed the numbers there and the only person who could cast authoritative doubt on the Ohio numbers was conveniently killed (was he enroute to D.C. to testify?) when the small plane he was piloting crashed. Meanwhile, for Kerry, almost all of the exit polls showed him kicking Cheney/Bush's ass -- yet none of those polls showed up in the vote count -- people coming out of the election site told pollsters they voted for Kerry but, for the first time ever, the exit polls "failed" as a predictor.

And of course Donnie Fatso would not have won in 2016 -- Hillary had more popular votes -- if Comey hadn't deliberately (and with malice aforethought) violated FBI procedures and prohibitions against publicizing the existence of on-going investigations.
(Yeah, there were other contributing factors, but this was the big one. Hillary was so certain Comey cost her the election that I would not be surprised if, should Comey die before her, she hired an army of old men to piss daily on his grave.

The Republicans have never shied away from cheating their asses off and it's cost the Democrats the White House 3 times this century. Almost cost us 4, but something went wrong and the effort to cheat Romney into the WH went awry.

So yeah, the cheated this time, too, and got away with..

Still, an awful lot of yokels, morons, fascists, and Nazis made it to the polls to vote for the rapist. A large part of the US adult population ain't worth a bucket of cold urine. Those who voted their self-interest, that is, the wealthy, are traitors to the founding principles of America. Those who voted against their self interest, the middle and working class, the working class poor, the economically struggling and disenfranchised were bamboozled by the fascists and will get exactly what they deserve.

Meanwhile, the Republic hangs by a thread, as does the world.

[kristndem]

74. John Pavlovitz is posting about the under votes

Apparently there were many under votes where the ballots were left blank for every other race but the POTUS All favoring
Trump.

[LeftInTX]

77. Has he seen actual ballots????

Implying they marked Trump and nobody else reads of fraud to me. Or did they just mark the presidential race. There is a huge difference.

This happens every time a president is on the ballot. These may have been newly registered voters or very young voters.

[questionseverything]

152. You are correct...we should be able to see the ballots

[red dog 1]

76. K&R

I agree with you 100 percent. Republicans have stolen elections before.

[Kaleva]

80. Just because a bank could be robbed doesn't mean it was robbed

Don't you find it curious that Harris, Biden or any of our Dem governors, AGs and SOSs aren't questioning the validity of the election results? Are they in on it or do they believe Trump won the election fairly? What do you think?

Until someone provides actual proof that the bank was robbed, I'll continue to believe it wasn't.

[DetroitLegalBeagle]

107. This plus the fact that nearly the entire country saw a rightward shift

Did the republicans hack every county in every state? Because nearly every county showed the same trend. Deep red to deep blue. It didn't matter. NJ is within 5pts. Same with VA, which didn't get called till late in the night because it was so close. IL and NY margins shrunk double digits. California's, so far, has shrunk 9pts.

If the "anomalies" were limited to swing states, it would be one thing, but it wasn't limited. It was nationwide.

[Kaleva]

116. And Michigan is controlled by Democrats

Democrat state legislature, a Dem governor, a Dem AG, a Dem Secretary of State. And yet we are being asked to believe that Trump managed to steal the state.

[k55f5r]

130. When the bank does an audit

And comes up $10 million short, they've been robbed. They may not know how but $10 million is missing.

[k55f5r]

133. When the bank does an audit?

And $10 million is missing, they've been robbed. They may not know how they were robbed but they were robbed of 10 million dollars.
They don't just say oh well. We must have miscounted la de da.

[Kaleva]

142. If a bank was expecting a deposit of 10 million but it doesn't happen

that doesn't mean the bank was robbed.

You haven't been able to show that the bank had the 10 million in the first place

[Cirsium]

81. MAGA co-opted the issue

In so many areas we can easily see that the things that Trump and his sycophants accuse others of doing are the very things that they are actually guilty of doing themselves.

That constant drumbeat of "rigged elections" was very clever. That made it impossible for us to ever convince the public that it was the Republicans who have been rigging elections.

[SCantiGOP]

82. Threads like this

Make every member of DU look like a loon like the 2020 Stop the Steal Trumpers.

[Emile]

162. Do you think the party who gave us FAKE ELECTORS would not cheat?

[essaynnc]

83. One tidbit to add to the pile..

Excuse me if it's already been expressed, I didn't read every comment.

Remember when Trump offered the energy companies any legislation they wanted as long as they gave him a billion dollars? Who else was

listening to that? And what the hell is a billion dollars to the richest man on the planet? And what does he get for this?

I agree, everything sounded fishy. I also read another article about the number of votes in certain precincts being way off? Does anybody know where this article is?

How about a couple of years ago, I can't remember which election, but all of the pollsters were wrong and they all leaned toward the Republicans. A statistical anomaly that has about a 0.000001% chance of happening. No wonder we can't believe the polsters, they've been rigged!

Asking for a friend... LOL!!

[Susan Calvin]

87. The Texas Secretary of State is auditing the election.

You read that right. I do not yet know any further details.

[essaynnc]

92. I'm afraid....

A republican commission probably won't find anything wrong with a republican win. I'd be happy if they proved me wrong!

[Susan Calvin]

99. Yeah, but then why are they auditing in the first place?

I'm puzzled by that alone.

[LAS14]

89. This task force was convened in 2005.

The most troubling vulnerabilities of each system can be substantially remedied if proper countermeasures are implemented at the state and local level.

Think maybe some work has been done over the last 19 years??????

[lapfog_1]

106. nope

The federal government is still running software from 30 to 40 years ago.

The state and local governments are even worse. You would be surprised at the crap they use at the IRS, the FAA, the EPA, etc.

Some TLAs have modern stull, these are mostly the national security people and the DOE, NASA, etc. Maybe the FBI. None of which are involved in looking after elections except for the some intelligence operations.

That said, if the hacks were sophisticated enough... no investigation other than to hold a second election, would uncover them.

My solution, paper ballots, hand counted 3 times, summary reported publicly at every voting location and every time the votes are tabulated and summaries transmitted. I would be willing to trade that for a voter ID law. But if there is a voter ID law, I also want no voter registration expunged or rule change for 30 days before a national election. And no vote will be provisional by challenge. I love mail in ballots, but I would give up that for in person voting with voted ID and paper ballots and hand counted... if voting day is a national paid holiday... in fact we should have a voting week ( in person, ID, etc ) with at least 1 day of paid holiday. Last, I don't want endless media speculation on vote totals. I want the results to be unsealed nation wide like a week after the vote. Anyone spilling the beans before that is charged with a crime. I don't need to know the results on the last day of voting. Fuck the media. They can do polling all they want. No computers at any step of the process. Maybe we lose every time, maybe we win every time. But at least we will know exactly who voted and the vote totals are accurate.

[Meowmee]

120. There won't be any more

Elections, not valid ones anyway most likely in time.

[malaise]

94. THIS

Rec

[KS Toronado]

95. Do we have a task force in each swing State

looking into whether the election was stolen? And if no WHY NOT? We should do everything we can
to keep him out of the White House. How about a 10 million tax free reward for information on how
they cheated? Someone could step forward.

[Progressive dog]

97. There are tens of thousands of people

counting votes and watching for problems. That is conspiracy theory stuff entirely based on no evidence. Lots of real experts have looked for evidence and they haven't found enough to come close to changing the election result.

[Blue Owl]

98. I don't get those who are just ready to roll over and take the loss

tRump is a CHEATER through and through, and this time he may well have pulled off his greatest con, with the help of his sugar Vladdy and Leon fucking Musk.

The swing states need to be recounted and the results matched up with the ESS tabulator totals that were fed into the final server totals to make sure that no fuckery occurred.

Elon Musk himself said "all it takes is one line of code" -- sounds like he already knew how to rig the results. And Russian interference happened in every swing state -- the bomb threats could have coincided with the hacks on some level.

Why not investigate? What's the worst that could happen?

And personally, I could care less what anyone thinks about it. For fuck's sake, Dump spent the past four years whining and whining and whining about recounts and stolen votes -- well it's our turn now.

And think what the implications would be if it were proven that he and Musk and Putin DID cheat. Kamala would earn her rightful victory and we could avoid our democracy being stolen by a con man and our Supreme Court taken over by a convicted felon.

[yourout]

102. If there are mandated random hand audits that are properly run and results compared to...

Poll books along with accounting for requested absentee ballots it would show up assuming the election officials were not corrupt and doctoring the actual physical ballots which I'm not too inclined to believe there are very many

[John1956PA]

125. I do not know of such mandatory spot-auditing in PA.

It is time-consuming and somewhat complicated process to mount a hand-counting of paper ballots whenever a given candidate files and pays the fee for same. Years ago, I was in on a few hand-counts in disputed elections where ballot scanners tabulated the vote. I do not know how a random compliance hand-count spot-audit would be conducted. There would be a significant amount of inconvenience and disruption at the county courthouse in an all-day audit involving a reasonable sampling of the county's pricincts. A judge would have to be availablee to determine the voter's intent regarding a contested ballot. Of course, attorneys for both parties would want to witness the counting.

[SoCalDavidS]

103. If The Democrats Cry Foul, And Act Like Sore Losers, Voters Will Punish Us

Look what happened to T in this election, after he complained for the past 4 years.

[TBF]

141. "Look what happened to T in this election" - ahem, he won.

So that's not a very strong argument on your part.

[orangecrush]

114. Even if it was

We don't have the power to investigate.

And as far as prosecuting, we already see how that fucking works.

[Autisminsight]

115. Just the numbers, no way this is legit

I've been watching elections for 30 years in Wisconsin, and there is no legitimate way Trump got the results he ended up with. As much as I hate to go down this rabbit hole, 21 small, 60R/40D counties switched from their old machines to the all-in-one ImageCast. Trump netted 11,692 more votes in those this time against Harris than he did against Biden in 2020. He also got 8982 more votes than Republican Senate candidate Erik Hovde, while Dem Tammy Baldwin got 3178 more than Harris.

10 other counties used the ImageCast in both 2020 and 2024. Trump netted 10755 more in those this time. Security experts have been putting out security warnings about these machines since they came out 4 years ago. Recounts won't help with these all-in-one=machines. They will have to be audited for software intrusions. Coincidentally, the same machines Trump nuts stole and broke into after the 2020 election.
Trump won by 29,000. Baldwin won by 29,000

[Autisminsight]

118. bogus numbers in Wisconsin

I've been watching elections for 30 years in Wisconsin, and there is no legitimate way Trump got the results he ended up with. As much as I hate to go down this rabbit hole, 21 small, 60R/40D counties switched from their old machines to the all-in-one ImageCast. Trump netted 11,692 more votes in those this time against Harris than he did against Biden in 2020. He also got 8982 more votes than Republican Senate candidate Erik Hovde, while Dem Tammy Baldwin got 3178 more than Harris.

10 other counties used the ImageCast in both 2020 and 2024. Trump netted 10755 more in those this time. Security experts have been putting out security warnings about these machines since they came out 4 years ago. Recounts won't help with these all-in-one=machines. They will have to be audited for software intrusions. Coincidentally, the same machines Trump nuts stole and broke into after the 2020 election.
Trump won by 29,000. Baldwin won by 29,000

[annielion]

136. Thank You For Posting This

I so very much appreciate you posting this. The results of this election are totally unbelievable, so I don't believe them. I know a little about the ways our past elections have been stolen and that some election interference has occurred in all our recent elections. I know our "exit polls" are a joke. I'm tired of people explaining to me why people voted for Trump and what the exit polls prove.

[bcbink]

137. I cannot believe it. NT

[MarvinGardens]

138. Surprised how little? Really?

It seems to me that about half the threads I see on the main page are of this sort, a disappointingly high number.

Winning the next election begins with admitting that we lost this one.

[polichick]

153. There won't be a 'next election' - every expert on authoritarianism has explained this.

[hamsterjill]

139. Great post!

I sometimes wonder if there are posters on DU with a specific agenda, too. Like making the argument that this shouldn’t be investigated so the rest of us will stop discussing it.

We all know we need proof. That’s what we are discussing. This isn’t some wild conspiracy theory without merit.

[hamsterjill]

140. Great post!

I sometimes wonder if there are posters on DU with a specific agenda, too. Like making the argument that this shouldn’t be investigated so the rest of us will stop discussing it.

We all know we need proof. That’s what we are discussing. This isn’t some wild conspiracy theory without merit.

[Meowmee]

147. What are they so afraid of?

Do an audit and a forensic investigation and if it turns out nothing is found then we know. This should be done automatically after major elections imo.

[onenote]

149. Most states do audits.

[Meowmee]

150. Do full audits/recounts and forensic investigation every election in every state

[Think. Again.]

156. Thank you for posting this.

[Lunabell]

160. Too many people on here will cry conspiracy theories!!

And alert on any post that seems to question the integrity of this election. While musky-smell meets with Russians and has the capability to "fix" this election.

It needs to at least be considered and investigated. And let the evidence show the truth.