Israel can't "Go it alone" indefinitely, and Americans won't support Israel indefinitely

[Tom Rinaldo]

Israel is on course for catastrophe. If ever there was a nation that JUSTIFIABLY was paranoid about it's security and ultimate self preservation, it is Israel, which was formed as a homeland for the Jewish people who have faced persecution and periodic genocide for literally thousands of years. Yes, Israel must be tough to survive, but even if every Jew alive moved to Israel and took up arms, all 16 million of them collectively form a drop in the bucket of humanity, surrounded by a sea of Arabs and Persians.

If need be a strong and determined few can fight off a weak and indecisive many, to a point Eventually though that point will be reached, if not in this generation, then in the next, or in the one that follows. Support for Israel is deeply rooted in the United States, but it is not embedded in our national DNA. Antisemitism has deeper roots inside America than does support for a Jewish State.

For now, the deep affinity and common values most Americans share with the citizens of Israel dictate where American sympathies predominantly lie, that and our remaining collective memory of WWII and the holocaust that slaughtered 6 million Jews. Memories however fade, slowly as in the case of an epic event like WWII, but even an event as horrific as WWII seems hardly more present now to a child born in 2016 than does the American Civil War. If Americans of younger generations increasingly see Israel as an aggressor State, which is what is happening now, than as the victim of aggression itself, support for Israel will continue to wane in America

Israel can not exist for long, as time is reckoned by civilizations, based on strength alone. Israel needs allies, and Israel needs neighbors who see benefits to be had through peaceful coexistence with the Jewish State. What Israel does not need, indeed what Israel can not endure indefinitely, is the searing hatred of millions of people all living in very close proximity.

Hamas is committed to destroying Israel, and acts consistent with that goal. Israel, in turn, must now destroy Hamas. But how many more times can Israel repeat this cycle and come out on top each time? Once more, twice, three times? How many times can an iron fist smash its enemies into dust while thousands of civilians perish in the ashes as "collateral damage", before the Phoenix that eventually inevitably rises up does so as the ancient God of War, willing to pay any price for vengeance?

Collateral damage is a real concept, innocents die in every war, no matter how necessary and "moral" it may be. But the dead do not lie still, they inflame the minds of those who yet remain. When all other aspirations for the future die only one is left for those still living, revenge. And it is a powerful one, stronger in many cases than the will to live itself

Israel, under Netanyahu, probed the limits of Peace Through Strength. Not only has his policies reached the point of diminishing returns, they are slipping rapidly into a far more ominous state, that of contrary results, results that only increase the peril Israel faces. Israel needs another Yitzhak Rabin. Desperately.

[Ocelot II]

1. Seems to me (but what do I know?) that

Israel is finding itself in a situation rather like that of the US after 9/11. In both situations there was a terrorist attack that was not expected but should have been, followed by an outpouring of international support for the attacked countries and condemnation of the attack. But the responses in both cases squandered so much of that good will - the Bush administration thought it would be a good idea to go after the country that didn't do the attack, using the fake excuse of WMDs that weren't really there, followed by years of war and destruction and controversy that we're still dealing with. And I don't know what the hell Netanyahu's plans are, except that so far it seems to be resulting in horrific civilian casualties with no end in sight. Obviously in both cases there had to be a response, but what was the end game? What happens next?

It's a horrible situation and I don't see it getting better as long as Bibi is in power.

[jimfields33]

4. We are beginning week 6. Why is everyone so impatient with Israel but Russia is in year two?

Doesn’t seem fair to me. And Ukrainians are dying as well as collateral damage unfortunately. But Russia seems to get a free ride. Where’s the protests? The numerous news articles? The demands for a ceasefire? So not fair.

[Ocelot II]

5. Russia gets a free ride? Seriously?

[Tom Rinaldo]

8. Look to the West Bank - What is Israel doing there?

There was a full scale invasion from Hamas in Gaza. There has been no such invasion from the West Bank, and yet Palestinians there are now under attack from settlement extremists.

There are only very poor choices, for the moment, for Israel in Gaza that can be made, each with negative consequences. The options have not narrowed so extremely in the West Bank yet, and yet Israel continues to undermine the Palestinian Authority there.

[dutch777]

26. Russia has the knife of nuclear weapons at the EUs throat, Hamas does not (yet). But morally, I agree with you.

[Mosby]

2. Germany is going to replace the US

As Israel's largest, most powerful ally.

America is proving that they are undependable because of the undue influence that social media, MSM and astroturfers have on politics. It's just too easy to manipulate Americans it seems.

[JI7]

6. Recently a lot of Israelis have been saying they prefer

to get away from US aid for these reasons and so they have to worry less about politics in the US.

I think once they get the deal with Saudi Arabia done that will help also.

[Tom Rinaldo]

9. Nations, such as Saudi Arabia, give the illusion of permanence and continuity

Yes Israel can seek a deal with the current rulers of Saudi Arabia. They may have done so with the leaders in Turkey before Erdogan also. Or with Iran under the Shah. Jordon is not as stable as it seems. Egypt has upheavals also. Who knows what Syria will ultimately evolve into?

Peace with the current governments of neighboring nations is not the same as peaceful relations with neighboring people. Only the latter brings lasting security

[Just_Vote_Dem]

20. The fact that too many people believe Trump should be re-elected

Is showing the increasing rot of the U.S. I never thought I would say or think that of my country, but there it is.

[Tom Rinaldo]

10. Thanx BootinUp n/t

[Tom Rinaldo]

12. Ah, a horse by a different color then

I have dim non specific memories of old DU friends telling me that their DU names had changed, but can I remember now who they used to be? Of course not. I still haven't left my coffee mug in the refrigerator, so there is that at least to be glad about.

[Tom Rinaldo]

15. Yep, once you brought it up I suspected it might be you Jim

I remember those days, and you, well. It was a real honor to be on that team. I miss it. Hope most, if not all, goes well for you

[bluesbassman]

13. Solid analysis Tom.

It's unfortunate that some on the Left, including posters here, think Israel's right to self defense is unlimited. They may very well have that "right", but choosing to go down the unlimited path has consequences that in the past may have been unintended, but history has taught us what they are, and how very dangerous they can be.

[DFW]

24. I think ANY nation's right to self defense is unlimited.

I'm sure most Ukrainians would agree these days. How they go about it, and what is necessary to guarantee their continuing existence as a national entity and identity--THAT is what the great debate is always about. Just as important is what is done, once a battle is won. After demolishing Germany and Japan in 1945, it was wisely decided to NOT go down the same path as was taken in 1919. Starving bellies start fights. Full bellies do not. If Gaza had been turned into a mini Switzerland forty years ago, with the goal of its leaders being prosperity and stability instead of poverty and absolute control, the border between the two would more resemble that between France and Monte Carlo. Only when BOTH nations profit from the presence of their neighbors can there be a true peace. In 1945, DeGaulle (who spoke fluent German) and Adenauer got together and discussed how to make it impossible for another war between the two ever to occur. They hit upon economic integration, and 75 years later, not only do the two countries share a common currency, they don't even have border controls between the two any more. Today, there is less likelihood of a war between Germany and France than there is between New Hampshire and Vermont. I doubt Netanyahu is anywhere close to being that farsighted, but I'm confident that Israel's continuing existence depends on there ultimately being a similar situation. If only Rabin had found a similarly-minded leader on the other side to work with. Peace can be declared and broken by any "leader." It only really exists when the people looking at each other across the border do not do so on opposite sides of an electrified fence.

I have mentioned this friend before, but I know a guy who grew up in Ashkelon, in Israel but on the border with Gaza. He moved away to France when he was 12, but he says that when he lived there, he and his friends used to bicycle across the open border to Gaza all the time, and kids from Gaza used to bicycle over into Israel all the time, too. They used to shop and hang out, and no one needed to arm them or caution them.

My wife saw a film on German TV recently called "The Pig of Gaza." It was about a poor Gazan fishermen who one day pulled up his net and brought up a live pig. No explanation how it got there, but he brought it up, and tried to think of ways to make money off it, since he couldn't eat it. He heard that Russian Jews would eat pork, so he went to the border fence and asked to speak to some Russian Jews. They said, yes, they could do business, but all they wanted was the pig's semen to impregnate their own pigs. The poor fisherman was a bit distressed, but agreed to get it for them, and the scene of him trying to get the pig to give him some semen were apparently hilarious. While he was out, his wife watched dubbed Brazilian soap operas on TV. There was a Hamas soldier stationed on their roof, but he had nothing to do all day (those were the days), so he left his post and went downstairs to watch the Brazilian soap operas with the fisherman's wife. It was apparently a joint Palestinian-German production. Nothing of the sort could ever be made today, of course. No one in the area seems to have much to laugh about any more.

[Tom Rinaldo]

25. I always look forward to posts like this from you

They weave wonderfully between the seemingly innocuously and the profound.

Rabin did not have the ideal partner in Arafat, but he had a partner willing to allow a process for peace to move forward, and I think that was enough for Rabin to work with at that moment in history. Though Hamas did all it could to sabotage that peace opening, it was a right wing Jewish extremist who ultimately turned the tide back toward war by assassinating Rabin. Religious zealots on both sides of the divide are still working to further conflict.

[DFW]

27. Religious zealots are among the lowest forms of life, as far as I'm concerned

Their greatest gratification always turns out to be the misery of others.

I can think of few things more perverse.

[gulliver]

16. Israel has a whole bunch of nukes

They can defend their territory indefinitely as a result.

I agree they need another Rabin. Netanyahu should be toast. Unfortunately, the "less than charming" nitwits are rushing to the mics and cameras again, carrying their flags and chanting their stupid poems. They're Netanyahu and Hamas's only hope, really. The world is sick of the Jeffrey Dahmer (Hamas) and Trump (Netanyahu) genre.

[Tom Rinaldo]

18. If hate proliferates indefinitely, terrorists will get their own nukes...

...one way or another. Some of them most likely will only be crazed, and some kind of deadly stand off might take hold. But sooner or later totally embittered nihilists will get their hands on nukes, ones who believe that all those on "their side" will go do heaven upon death, wanting nothing more, nor less, than their honor vindicated, and revenge. How will nukes protect Israel then? At the very least they will need informants, lots and lots of them, among the Palestinians.

[gulliver]

19. Agreed

We completely need those Palestinians and their supporters who aren't death fans to help. Life would beat death in a popularity contest, I think, so we have that going for us. But we need to increase the investment in life to counteract some of the more nihilistic, hedonistic mirages of heaven.

[Big Blue Marble]

22. It is hard to use nukes in your own neighborhood.

even to defend yourself. Israel needs allies. I agree with the OP, time is not on their side.
Sympathies are shifting especially in Western countries.

[gulliver]

23. Israel has the United States as an ally

Both officially and by vast margins in opinion polls. There is also really no one in the United States of significance who opposes Israel.

[scipan]

21. K&R