General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsUS secretary of state Antony Blinken says 'far too many' Palestinians have died
He said the US has proposed additional ideas to the Israelis, including longer humanitarian pauses and expanding the amount of assistance getting into Gaza. Israels efforts to formalise pauses in its military operations and the creation of a second safe corridor for them to use to escape harm are appreciated, he said.
The steps, he said will save lives and will enable more assistance to get to Palestinians in need, but at the same time, much more needs to be done to protect civilians and to make sure that humanitarian assistance reaches them.
The US diplomat said far too many Palestinians have been killed, far too many have suffered these past weeks and that everything possible should be done to prevent them harm and maximise the assistance they need.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/nov/10/israel-hamas-war-live-updates-benjamin-netanyahu-gaza-fighting-pauses-un-palestine
Goddessartist
(2,176 posts)of the Palestinian civilians. It needs to stop.
jimfields33
(19,382 posts)Israeli military by pointing out where Hamas is hiding out that it may result in a quicker end to the war. That would benefit both sides and the world. The goal is to get every hamas in the country.
enid602
(9,684 posts)I think that would imply that there is contact between Israelis and Gazans. Other than leaflets thrown out of planes before bombings. Hell, the Israelis dont even listen to their current allies.
totodeinhere
(13,688 posts)Israel is not intentionally targeting civilians like Hamas does. This is the only way to take out Hamas and if they don't take put Hamas they will continue to fire rockets at Israel indiscriminately and invade their territory to kill more citizens. Any civilian casualties in Gaza are the fault of Hamas not Israel.
mjvpi
(1,931 posts)I totally condemn Hamas for their arrack on innocent Israeli citizens. But look at the sheer extent of the destruction. If you truly decry the death of innocent human beings, how can you possibly believe that there is any real discretion in this degree of destruction?
totodeinhere
(13,688 posts)and multiple sources have confirmed that they are, then how can Israel eliminate Hamas without there being innocent civilian victims? Hamas wants the civilian population of Gaza killed because it will make Israel look bad and Hamas will win propaganda points. Yet if Israel does not eliminate Hamas, Hamas will continue on its quest to destroy Israel. Hamas has caused an impossible moral dilemma for Israel.
Eko
(9,993 posts)and it seems there needs to be a lot of innocent civilian victims to do that. That is on Israel and that is the cost they are willing to pay.
Said another way, Israel is willing to kill a lot of innocent civilians to get rid of Hamas. They may wish they didn't have to but in the end that is what they chose. It was also not an impossible dilemma because if it was then it wouldn't be possible to have made that decision and since they did it was entirely possible. I give neither agreement nor disagreement with their position here but just state the reality.
Eko.
Goddessartist
(2,176 posts)So many here think it's okay to bomb hospitals and wipe out apartment buildings, ambulance convoys, because "Hamas'. Hamas isn't even based in Palestine. The leaders are in Qatar and other places. Should the Israelis slaughter them as well?
Listen to yourselves, all of you who liked totodeinhere's response. Bloodthirsty.
totodeinhere
(13,688 posts)I grieve for all innocent civilians on both sides who have been harmed. The vast majority of Hamas fighters are based in Gaza and until they are all eliminated they will continue to kill innocent Israelis. Israel has also vowed to take out Hamas leadership and that will happen in due course regardless of whether those people are located in Gaza or not. But in the meantime the war must continue. If Israel does not eliminate Hamas it will continue its quest to kill all Jews in the Middle East.
Israel can no more agree to a ceasefire than the US could agree to a ceasefire after Pearl Harbor. Was FDR bloodthirsty for ordering carpet bombing of Dresden? No, FDR is considered one of our greatest Democratic presidents.
The only way to stop the killing is to stop Hamas and very sadly and tragically that will involve many civilian casualties but less people will die in the long run once Hamas is eliminated.
inthewind21
(4,616 posts)You skipped right over 9/11 and went back to pearl harbor. Telling.
totodeinhere
(13,688 posts)even though it involved a lot of civilian casualties. I could not use 9/11 as an example because GWB was not a great president. He was one of the worst presidents we ever had.
maxsolomon
(38,711 posts)Telling them to GTFO of their buildings because they're being targeted.
A "wholesale slaughter" wouldn't bother giving a heads-up.
mjvpi
(1,931 posts)
.except what they can carry. No home to go back to. No where to go. No food. No water. Youre innocent of everything except being Palestinian in Gaza. Your home.
I 100% condemned the Hamas attack on Israel. Period. Full stop. What is happening now in Gaza is no less of an example of the worst of human behaviors.
inthewind21
(4,616 posts)So there's no electricity, no water but the telephones' s are all still working. I see.
maxsolomon
(38,711 posts)Last edited Mon Nov 13, 2023, 04:14 PM - Edit history (1)
When Israel allows it.
Here's a story from last week:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/29/anguish-of-gaza-residents-as-phones-return-to-life-with-news-of-those-lost
Are you saying I'm lying?
Autumn
(48,962 posts)They have teams that could get them out of there. Hold them for the release of the hostages.
aocommunalpunch
(4,581 posts)Isnt the goal. Weird.
Autumn
(48,962 posts)We used to get them all the time. It seemed to work well.
maxsolomon
(38,711 posts)1. They are well-guarded and don't put themselves anywhere they can be assassinated.
2. Because Israel needs Qatar's help in the hostage negotiations.
"Teams"? Real life isn't a Batman movie.
Autumn
(48,962 posts)NOTHING at all like Batman. Seal Team Six was bad ass. ( FYI They actually are called that ) I've heard Israel has some bad ass anti terrorism Teams too.
maxsolomon
(38,711 posts)infiltrating a well-guarded high-rise, extracting Hamas leaders alive, and taking them back to Israel?
Beastly Boy
(13,283 posts)because nobody is expecting the ruling Hamas to give a shit about Gaza civilians.
malthaussen
(18,567 posts)Applies not only to Hamas, but other government and non-government offices.
-- Mal
malthaussen
(18,567 posts)But then, we've never been all that much worried about what is euphemistically called "collateral damage."
-- Mal
maxsolomon
(38,711 posts)Is there ANY acceptable number that isn't zero?
malthaussen
(18,567 posts)In my experience, when a country decides to kill its enemies, it doesn't care who gets in the way. Any losses are "acceptable" if they aren't yours. This doesn't mean that sometimes losses of your own aren't "acceptable," it depends on the goals of the government and how many bodies they're willing to pile up to achieve them. I do not believe anybody's mouth-noises about "regrettable losses," they are as empty as "thoughts and prayers" as far as I'm concerned.
That said, so long as diplomacy basically consists of killing people until they do what you want, there will continue to be "unacceptable" losses. If we have to kill an entire wedding party of civilians to get at one terrorist, well, they shouldn't have been there to start with.
-- Mal
Dave Bowman
(7,153 posts)totodeinhere
(13,688 posts)Why doesn't anyone ask that question? Isn't that question just as legitimate? And if the answer to that question is zero, then what should Israel do to stop Hamas from killing more innocent civilians?
maxsolomon
(38,711 posts)That's the problem with peace activist idealism.
It's an impossible question to answer - non-violence is the only correct answer, and that's impossible.
Donkees
(33,706 posts)Blinken's statement is basically diplomat jargon for calling out the lies.
https://www.diplomacy.edu/resource/use-of-language-in-diplomacy/
IronLionZion
(51,267 posts)who are perfectly willing to kill thousands of innocent people to get 1 Hamas person in a tunnel underneath. Civilian deaths are acceptable to people who hate these types of civilians.
sarisataka
(22,694 posts)Hamas needs to release the hostages and surrender to the IDF. End the suffering of the Palestinians from this conflict.
Lanius
(662 posts)sarisataka
(22,694 posts)But that is not going to happen-
We succeeded in putting the Palestinian issue back on the table, and now no one in the region is experiencing calm, Al-Hayya said, confirming that he considered the attacks a success.
While world leaders have been pushing for Israel to agree to a ceasefire in its war against the Gaza terror group, Al-Hayya and other Hamas members dismissed the idea that they want to govern Gaza and restore a sense of calm, instead expressing support for endless conflict.
Hamas wants about 7 million dead Jews. (Not Israelis, because in Hamas world there is no such thing as Israel) They are not concerned with how many "martyrs" it takes to achieve that goal.
Lanius
(662 posts)Thats on them.
maxsolomon
(38,711 posts)They've been calling Gazans on their mobile phones to give them warnings. Sounds somewhat careful.
mjvpi
(1,931 posts)maxsolomon
(38,711 posts)wrong word i guess. i'd like to think that the IDF bombing campaign has a strategy and is discriminate.
Richard D
(10,018 posts). . . but this is naive. Hamas is using civilians as human shields. It's not the civilian's fault. They are forced into it at gunpoint. This is tragic.
Yet what the civilians are shielding are military sites, missile launchers, and arms caches. etc. That is, sites that have to be destroyed to protect citizens of Israel.
But Israel Bad! yeesh. Ridiculous.
kwolf68
(8,452 posts)Must be nice for Israel to be absolved of total culpability for the death of innocents. Its part of the campaign and its totally on Hamas for using children as human shields. Israel could literally wipe Gaza off the map killing every single person there and argue we are trying to get Hamas and they were using everyone there as human shields so wiping away every single Palestinian is just the way it is. Blame Hamas. Move along, nothing to see here and definitely dont look at that stack of innocent corpses over there.
So where does it end? If Hamas is in Qatar, Jordan, Syria, Iran, where-the-heck ever then Israel can just go to those nations, bomb the shit out of them (with American munitions backed by American money), kill innocent people and its under the auspices of getting Hamas and if innocents die thems the breaks.
Basically, just like our war on terror after 9/11 attacks. We waged war against a mostly innocent people because they had nukes, no no not that they have a tyrant as leader, no no not that either we are gonna bring Democracy to the region. Seven trillion dollars and hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths later what have we got? How does it taste? Israel wont win this in the end if it continues like this and if they continue to slaughter, they will eventually lose Western sympathies if their ruthlessness continues. Oh, lets not forget to note that in the course of this bombing campaign, Israel is doing a fine job of recruiting the next generation of Hamas fighters. Yea buddy, wipe out old Hamas, some day well fight the new Hamas. Has anyone thought any of this out?
I am terribly upset and sad at what happened to Israel on October 7th, but I am trying to see thats not just an with us or against us argument (funny some are now following the words of G.W.Bush) and a truly peaceful people HAVE to care and be respectful of dying innocents in Gaza. There is almost no compassion for innocent Palestinians. I mean even if one can justify Israels aggressive campaign, the fact that defense is wrapped around an exceedingly cavalier attitude about the dead women and children in Gaza strip, seems to suggest to me a lot of people (maybe not this poster or even anyone here) actually DO WANT to get rid of the Palestinian people.
In closing, I typically take my queue from Republicans. If I am in disagreement with them I feel like I am on the right path. When I agree with them I get worried and really try to vet any opinion that aligns with that crowd. And on waging war against Palesti...err I mean Hamas, the Republican Party is gung-ho, smoke them out, war drums a banging. Tells me my compassion for BOTH the innocents in Israel AND the innocents in Gaza is maybe properly directed.
malthaussen
(18,567 posts)... let's imagine a bank robber takes hostages and demands free passage to freedom. Would it be reasonable for the police or other authorities to go in and kill 'em all, just to get the felon, and too bad about those hostages, wrong place, wrong time.
Yeah, the two cases are not strictly parallel. The bank robber is not threatening lives outside the bank. But the police also don't have high explosive munitions at their command, they'd have to put their bodies on the line to "get" the bank robber. And, of course, the bodies of the hostages.
There was a time, many years ago, when one of the missions of special forces was to attack and destroy hostage-holding terrorists while trying very hard to preserve innocent lives. But special forces operatives take a lot of time and money to train, and damn, if Yoni Netanyahu hadn't gone and gotten himself killed at Entebbe, maybe his brother would be less of a bastard. I doubt it, though, Bibi was Stern Gang before he was a politician. Whatever. It's so much easier to use high explosives, Hellfire missiles, and whatnot and just wipe out everybody in the place. Spec Ops guys have families, too, after all.
All bitterness and cynicism aside, though, governments play into the hands of terrorists when they commit indiscriminate terror themselves to fight them. They have become the monsters they fight, and the people on the ground remember. And what they remember is not that Ali took their mom hostage as a human shield (while putatively fighting for her "freedom"
, they remember that Mom was blown away by the bombs or shells of the State on the other side. So the cycle continues. Thing about terrorists, they don't care much about personal survival, or the survival of anyone, really. So killing them is no big victory, and serves as no deterrent, nor does it stop the organization from committing more terror. Killing a bunch of civilians just to score an empty kill on a few bastards seems not to be cost-effective, although of course the dead civilians aren't our civilians, so who really cares, anyway? Oops, there I go being bitter and cynical again.
-- Mal
Lanius
(662 posts)Killing 12,000 civilians wont help Israel in the long run.
Lanius
(662 posts)T_A
(604 posts)Actually, a LOT late.
gulliver
(13,985 posts)That is, of course, Blinken is not saying "Israel has killed too many civilians." He's saying too many Palestinian civilians have died. And they have. But each and every one of the civilian casualties is the fault of Hamas and other ISIS-like broken units.
It's very important that Israel do its best to preserve innocent human life. And it's good for the U.S. to stand for that principle, just like any other law-abiding country.
ecstatic
(35,075 posts)Like a super violent version of musical chairs.
It's just a prolonging of a slow motion death sentence with extra time to feel terrorized.
The pause is NOT a solution if the ultimate plan is to bomb every structure in Gaza. It's time for Blinken to stop begging for agreement and to be firm with Netanyahu. Yes, we have your back, but we cannot afford to be at war with the entire Middle East. You want our money, you follow our rules. Period.
Donkees
(33,706 posts)https://www.vox.com/world-politics/2023/11/4/23945628/israel-hamas-war-gaza-ceasefire-history-explained