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Donkees

(33,706 posts)
Fri Nov 10, 2023, 10:07 AM Nov 2023

US secretary of state Antony Blinken says 'far too many' Palestinians have died

Speaking in New Delhi, Blinken has said the US “appreciates” Israel’s steps to minimise civilian casualties but that it is not enough, the Associated Press reports.

He said the US has proposed additional ideas to the Israelis, including longer “humanitarian pauses” and expanding the amount of assistance getting into Gaza. Israel’s efforts to formalise pauses in its military operations and the creation of a second safe corridor for them to use to escape harm are appreciated, he said.

The steps, he said “will save lives and will enable more assistance to get to Palestinians in need,” but at the same time, “much more needs to be done to protect civilians and to make sure that humanitarian assistance reaches them.”

The US diplomat said “far too many Palestinians have been killed, far too many have suffered these past weeks” and that everything possible should be done to prevent them harm and maximise the assistance they need.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/nov/10/israel-hamas-war-live-updates-benjamin-netanyahu-gaza-fighting-pauses-un-palestine
48 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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US secretary of state Antony Blinken says 'far too many' Palestinians have died (Original Post) Donkees Nov 2023 OP
It's a wholesale slaughter Goddessartist Nov 2023 #1
I wonder if Palestinian began working with jimfields33 Nov 2023 #2
Communication enid602 Nov 2023 #28
No it's not. totodeinhere Nov 2023 #12
As a human being, I would ask you to please look at pictures of the bombing in Gaza mjvpi Nov 2023 #21
I am not a military expert, but if Hamas is hiding behind civilians, totodeinhere Nov 2023 #24
Israel cant eliminate Hamas without there being innocent civilian victims, Eko Nov 2023 #27
So it's not a slaughter because Hamas might be there? Goddessartist Nov 2023 #30
I resent being called bloodthirsty because I am certainly not. totodeinhere Nov 2023 #33
Interesting inthewind21 Nov 2023 #38
I skipped 9/11 because I wanted to show an example where a great president used force totodeinhere Nov 2023 #46
I've been reading stories of Palestinians getting calls from the IDF maxsolomon Nov 2023 #13
Innocent people being given the courtesy of being told they can get out and loose everything that they have....... mjvpi Nov 2023 #22
Huh inthewind21 Nov 2023 #39
I don't know how they're being powered but apparently there is service. maxsolomon Nov 2023 #40
I wonder why Israel has not gone after the 3 top leaders of Hamas who live in Qatar. Autumn Nov 2023 #29
Almost like getting the leaders aocommunalpunch Nov 2023 #31
I know that America is really good at killing the #1 #2 and often #3. Autumn Nov 2023 #43
Likely reasons: maxsolomon Nov 2023 #41
We have Seal "Team" Six here in US among others. That's in real life, in case you don't know, they are Autumn Nov 2023 #44
No doubt, but going into a foreign nation maxsolomon Nov 2023 #45
Unilateral steps are expected of Israel Beastly Boy Nov 2023 #3
The crux of the problem in a nutshell. malthaussen Nov 2023 #5
"Far too many" implies there is an acceptable number. malthaussen Nov 2023 #4
I've asked this question of several DUers and never gotten an answer. maxsolomon Nov 2023 #14
In principle, no. In reality? Depends on your definition of "acceptable." malthaussen Nov 2023 #17
No, one is too many. nt Dave Bowman Nov 2023 #19
Is there an acceptable number of Israeli citizens that Hamas can kill? totodeinhere Nov 2023 #35
The focus is on the actions of the more powerful party. maxsolomon Nov 2023 #37
''One of the typical characteristics of "diplomatic" language is a certain subdued tone, some kind of understatement.'' Donkees Nov 2023 #36
Not enough according to some folks IronLionZion Nov 2023 #20
I fully agree sarisataka Nov 2023 #6
Might help if Israel is more careful with its bombing campaign Lanius Nov 2023 #7
If Hamas surrendered, no need for more bombs sarisataka Nov 2023 #10
Israel makes a choice to bomb Lanius Nov 2023 #47
I've been under the impression that it is fairly precise. maxsolomon Nov 2023 #15
Please turn on your trusted news source. You can see pictures of that "precision". mjvpi Nov 2023 #23
i'm seeing it. BBC last night. maxsolomon Nov 2023 #25
I'm so sorry . . . Richard D Nov 2023 #8
Must be nice kwolf68 Nov 2023 #16
So, riddle me this... malthaussen Nov 2023 #18
Israel doesn't have to bomb Lanius Nov 2023 #48
Yeah this should have been said several thousand dead children ago. Lanius Nov 2023 #9
He's A Little Late T_A Nov 2023 #11
He's mainly talking about them as indirect victims of Hamas gulliver Nov 2023 #26
The "humanitarian pause" sounds like psychological torture ecstatic Nov 2023 #32
Mon, October 9th 2023 - Blinken deleted a social media post Monday morning that expressed support for a "cease-fire" Donkees Nov 2023 #34
+1 leftstreet Nov 2023 #42
 

jimfields33

(19,382 posts)
2. I wonder if Palestinian began working with
Fri Nov 10, 2023, 10:41 AM
Nov 2023

Israeli military by pointing out where Hamas is hiding out that it may result in a quicker end to the war. That would benefit both sides and the world. The goal is to get every hamas in the country.

enid602

(9,684 posts)
28. Communication
Sat Nov 11, 2023, 09:39 PM
Nov 2023

I think that would imply that there is contact between Israelis and Gazans. Other than leaflets thrown out of planes before bombings. Hell, the Israelis don’t even listen to their current allies.

totodeinhere

(13,688 posts)
12. No it's not.
Fri Nov 10, 2023, 02:47 PM
Nov 2023

Israel is not intentionally targeting civilians like Hamas does. This is the only way to take out Hamas and if they don't take put Hamas they will continue to fire rockets at Israel indiscriminately and invade their territory to kill more citizens. Any civilian casualties in Gaza are the fault of Hamas not Israel.

mjvpi

(1,931 posts)
21. As a human being, I would ask you to please look at pictures of the bombing in Gaza
Sat Nov 11, 2023, 04:58 PM
Nov 2023

I totally condemn Hamas for their arrack on innocent Israeli citizens. But look at the sheer extent of the destruction. If you truly decry the death of innocent human beings, how can you possibly believe that there is any real discretion in this degree of destruction?

totodeinhere

(13,688 posts)
24. I am not a military expert, but if Hamas is hiding behind civilians,
Sat Nov 11, 2023, 05:30 PM
Nov 2023

and multiple sources have confirmed that they are, then how can Israel eliminate Hamas without there being innocent civilian victims? Hamas wants the civilian population of Gaza killed because it will make Israel look bad and Hamas will win propaganda points. Yet if Israel does not eliminate Hamas, Hamas will continue on its quest to destroy Israel. Hamas has caused an impossible moral dilemma for Israel.

Eko

(9,993 posts)
27. Israel cant eliminate Hamas without there being innocent civilian victims,
Sat Nov 11, 2023, 08:52 PM
Nov 2023

and it seems there needs to be a lot of innocent civilian victims to do that. That is on Israel and that is the cost they are willing to pay.
Said another way, Israel is willing to kill a lot of innocent civilians to get rid of Hamas. They may wish they didn't have to but in the end that is what they chose. It was also not an impossible dilemma because if it was then it wouldn't be possible to have made that decision and since they did it was entirely possible. I give neither agreement nor disagreement with their position here but just state the reality.
Eko.

Goddessartist

(2,176 posts)
30. So it's not a slaughter because Hamas might be there?
Sun Nov 12, 2023, 08:22 AM
Nov 2023

So many here think it's okay to bomb hospitals and wipe out apartment buildings, ambulance convoys, because "Hamas'. Hamas isn't even based in Palestine. The leaders are in Qatar and other places. Should the Israelis slaughter them as well?

Listen to yourselves, all of you who liked totodeinhere's response. Bloodthirsty.

totodeinhere

(13,688 posts)
33. I resent being called bloodthirsty because I am certainly not.
Sun Nov 12, 2023, 01:36 PM
Nov 2023

I grieve for all innocent civilians on both sides who have been harmed. The vast majority of Hamas fighters are based in Gaza and until they are all eliminated they will continue to kill innocent Israelis. Israel has also vowed to take out Hamas leadership and that will happen in due course regardless of whether those people are located in Gaza or not. But in the meantime the war must continue. If Israel does not eliminate Hamas it will continue its quest to kill all Jews in the Middle East.

Israel can no more agree to a ceasefire than the US could agree to a ceasefire after Pearl Harbor. Was FDR bloodthirsty for ordering carpet bombing of Dresden? No, FDR is considered one of our greatest Democratic presidents.

The only way to stop the killing is to stop Hamas and very sadly and tragically that will involve many civilian casualties but less people will die in the long run once Hamas is eliminated.

totodeinhere

(13,688 posts)
46. I skipped 9/11 because I wanted to show an example where a great president used force
Mon Nov 13, 2023, 04:50 PM
Nov 2023

even though it involved a lot of civilian casualties. I could not use 9/11 as an example because GWB was not a great president. He was one of the worst presidents we ever had.

maxsolomon

(38,711 posts)
13. I've been reading stories of Palestinians getting calls from the IDF
Fri Nov 10, 2023, 03:04 PM
Nov 2023

Telling them to GTFO of their buildings because they're being targeted.

A "wholesale slaughter" wouldn't bother giving a heads-up.

mjvpi

(1,931 posts)
22. Innocent people being given the courtesy of being told they can get out and loose everything that they have.......
Sat Nov 11, 2023, 05:12 PM
Nov 2023

….except what they can carry. No home to go back to. No where to go. No food. No water. You’re innocent of everything except being Palestinian in Gaza. Your home.

I 100% condemned the Hamas attack on Israel. Period. Full stop. What is happening now in Gaza is no less of an example of the worst of human behaviors.

 

inthewind21

(4,616 posts)
39. Huh
Mon Nov 13, 2023, 03:31 PM
Nov 2023

So there's no electricity, no water but the telephones' s are all still working. I see.

maxsolomon

(38,711 posts)
40. I don't know how they're being powered but apparently there is service.
Mon Nov 13, 2023, 03:35 PM
Nov 2023

Last edited Mon Nov 13, 2023, 04:14 PM - Edit history (1)

When Israel allows it.

Here's a story from last week:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/29/anguish-of-gaza-residents-as-phones-return-to-life-with-news-of-those-lost

Are you saying I'm lying?

Autumn

(48,962 posts)
29. I wonder why Israel has not gone after the 3 top leaders of Hamas who live in Qatar.
Sat Nov 11, 2023, 10:33 PM
Nov 2023

They have teams that could get them out of there. Hold them for the release of the hostages.

Autumn

(48,962 posts)
43. I know that America is really good at killing the #1 #2 and often #3.
Mon Nov 13, 2023, 03:51 PM
Nov 2023

We used to get them all the time. It seemed to work well.

maxsolomon

(38,711 posts)
41. Likely reasons:
Mon Nov 13, 2023, 03:38 PM
Nov 2023

1. They are well-guarded and don't put themselves anywhere they can be assassinated.
2. Because Israel needs Qatar's help in the hostage negotiations.

"Teams"? Real life isn't a Batman movie.

Autumn

(48,962 posts)
44. We have Seal "Team" Six here in US among others. That's in real life, in case you don't know, they are
Mon Nov 13, 2023, 03:58 PM
Nov 2023

NOTHING at all like Batman. Seal Team Six was bad ass. ( FYI They actually are called that ) I've heard Israel has some bad ass anti terrorism Teams too.

maxsolomon

(38,711 posts)
45. No doubt, but going into a foreign nation
Mon Nov 13, 2023, 04:11 PM
Nov 2023

infiltrating a well-guarded high-rise, extracting Hamas leaders alive, and taking them back to Israel?

 

Beastly Boy

(13,283 posts)
3. Unilateral steps are expected of Israel
Fri Nov 10, 2023, 11:31 AM
Nov 2023

because nobody is expecting the ruling Hamas to give a shit about Gaza civilians.

malthaussen

(18,567 posts)
5. The crux of the problem in a nutshell.
Fri Nov 10, 2023, 11:36 AM
Nov 2023

Applies not only to Hamas, but other government and non-government offices.

-- Mal

malthaussen

(18,567 posts)
4. "Far too many" implies there is an acceptable number.
Fri Nov 10, 2023, 11:35 AM
Nov 2023

But then, we've never been all that much worried about what is euphemistically called "collateral damage."

-- Mal

maxsolomon

(38,711 posts)
14. I've asked this question of several DUers and never gotten an answer.
Fri Nov 10, 2023, 03:07 PM
Nov 2023

Is there ANY acceptable number that isn't zero?

malthaussen

(18,567 posts)
17. In principle, no. In reality? Depends on your definition of "acceptable."
Fri Nov 10, 2023, 04:11 PM
Nov 2023

In my experience, when a country decides to kill its enemies, it doesn't care who gets in the way. Any losses are "acceptable" if they aren't yours. This doesn't mean that sometimes losses of your own aren't "acceptable," it depends on the goals of the government and how many bodies they're willing to pile up to achieve them. I do not believe anybody's mouth-noises about "regrettable losses," they are as empty as "thoughts and prayers" as far as I'm concerned.

That said, so long as diplomacy basically consists of killing people until they do what you want, there will continue to be "unacceptable" losses. If we have to kill an entire wedding party of civilians to get at one terrorist, well, they shouldn't have been there to start with.

-- Mal

totodeinhere

(13,688 posts)
35. Is there an acceptable number of Israeli citizens that Hamas can kill?
Sun Nov 12, 2023, 06:00 PM
Nov 2023

Why doesn't anyone ask that question? Isn't that question just as legitimate? And if the answer to that question is zero, then what should Israel do to stop Hamas from killing more innocent civilians?

maxsolomon

(38,711 posts)
37. The focus is on the actions of the more powerful party.
Mon Nov 13, 2023, 12:42 PM
Nov 2023

That's the problem with peace activist idealism.

It's an impossible question to answer - non-violence is the only correct answer, and that's impossible.

Donkees

(33,706 posts)
36. ''One of the typical characteristics of "diplomatic" language is a certain subdued tone, some kind of understatement.''
Sun Nov 12, 2023, 06:29 PM
Nov 2023

Blinken's statement is basically diplomat jargon for calling out the lies.

One of the typical characteristics of “diplomatic” language is a certain subdued tone, some kind of understatement. It is correct to say that the real weight of words and terms in diplomatic professional jargon is much stronger than those same words in “normal” everyday speech.

https://www.diplomacy.edu/resource/use-of-language-in-diplomacy/


Speaking in New Delhi, Blinken has said the US “appreciates” Israel’s steps to minimise civilian casualties but that it is not enough, the Associated Press reports.

IronLionZion

(51,267 posts)
20. Not enough according to some folks
Fri Nov 10, 2023, 07:11 PM
Nov 2023

who are perfectly willing to kill thousands of innocent people to get 1 Hamas person in a tunnel underneath. Civilian deaths are acceptable to people who hate these types of civilians.

sarisataka

(22,694 posts)
6. I fully agree
Fri Nov 10, 2023, 11:39 AM
Nov 2023

Hamas needs to release the hostages and surrender to the IDF. End the suffering of the Palestinians from this conflict.

sarisataka

(22,694 posts)
10. If Hamas surrendered, no need for more bombs
Fri Nov 10, 2023, 01:06 PM
Nov 2023

But that is not going to happen-

“We succeeded in putting the Palestinian issue back on the table, and now no one in the region is experiencing calm,” Al-Hayya said, confirming that he considered the attacks a success.

While world leaders have been pushing for Israel to agree to a ceasefire in its war against the Gaza terror group, Al-Hayya and other Hamas members dismissed the idea that they want to govern Gaza and restore a sense of calm, instead expressing support for endless conflict.

Hamas wants about 7 million dead Jews. (Not Israelis, because in Hamas world there is no such thing as Israel) They are not concerned with how many "martyrs" it takes to achieve that goal.

maxsolomon

(38,711 posts)
15. I've been under the impression that it is fairly precise.
Fri Nov 10, 2023, 03:09 PM
Nov 2023

They've been calling Gazans on their mobile phones to give them warnings. Sounds somewhat careful.

maxsolomon

(38,711 posts)
25. i'm seeing it. BBC last night.
Sat Nov 11, 2023, 08:32 PM
Nov 2023

wrong word i guess. i'd like to think that the IDF bombing campaign has a strategy and is discriminate.




 

Richard D

(10,018 posts)
8. I'm so sorry . . .
Fri Nov 10, 2023, 12:50 PM
Nov 2023

. . . but this is naive. Hamas is using civilians as human shields. It's not the civilian's fault. They are forced into it at gunpoint. This is tragic.

Yet what the civilians are shielding are military sites, missile launchers, and arms caches. etc. That is, sites that have to be destroyed to protect citizens of Israel.

But Israel Bad! yeesh. Ridiculous.

kwolf68

(8,452 posts)
16. Must be nice
Fri Nov 10, 2023, 03:40 PM
Nov 2023

Must be nice for Israel to be absolved of total culpability for the death of innocents. It’s part of the campaign and it’s totally on Hamas for using children as human shields. Israel could literally wipe Gaza off the map killing every single person there and argue “we are trying to get Hamas and they were using everyone there as human shields” so wiping away every single Palestinian is just the way it is. Blame Hamas. Move along, nothing to see here and definitely don’t look at that stack of innocent corpses over there.

So where does it end? If Hamas is in Qatar, Jordan, Syria, Iran, where-the-heck ever then Israel can just go to those nations, bomb the shit out of them (with American munitions backed by American money), kill innocent people and it’s under the auspices of “getting Hamas and if innocents die them’s the breaks.”

Basically, just like our ‘war on terror’ after 9/11 attacks. We waged war against a mostly innocent people because they had nukes, no no not that they have a tyrant as leader, no no not that either we are gonna bring Democracy to the region. Seven trillion dollars and hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths later what have we got? How does it taste? Israel won’t win this in the end if it continues like this and if they continue to slaughter, they will eventually lose Western sympathies if their ruthlessness continues. Oh, lets not forget to note that in the course of this bombing campaign, Israel is doing a fine job of recruiting the next generation of Hamas fighters. Yea buddy, wipe out old Hamas, some day we’ll fight the new Hamas. Has anyone thought any of this out?

I am terribly upset and sad at what happened to Israel on October 7th, but I am trying to see that’s not just an “with us or against us” argument (funny some are now following the words of G.W.Bush) and a truly peaceful people HAVE to care and be respectful of dying innocents in Gaza. There is almost no compassion for innocent Palestinians. I mean even if one can justify Israel’s aggressive campaign, the fact that defense is wrapped around an exceedingly cavalier attitude about the dead women and children in Gaza strip, seems to suggest to me a lot of people (maybe not this poster or even anyone here) actually DO WANT to get rid of the Palestinian people.

In closing, I typically take my queue from Republicans. If I am in disagreement with them I feel like I am on the right path. When I agree with them I get worried and really try to vet any opinion that aligns with that crowd. And on waging war against Palesti...err I mean Hamas, the Republican Party is gung-ho, “smoke them out”, war drums a banging. Tells me my compassion for BOTH the innocents in Israel AND the innocents in Gaza is maybe properly directed.

malthaussen

(18,567 posts)
18. So, riddle me this...
Fri Nov 10, 2023, 04:34 PM
Nov 2023

... let's imagine a bank robber takes hostages and demands free passage to freedom. Would it be reasonable for the police or other authorities to go in and kill 'em all, just to get the felon, and too bad about those hostages, wrong place, wrong time.

Yeah, the two cases are not strictly parallel. The bank robber is not threatening lives outside the bank. But the police also don't have high explosive munitions at their command, they'd have to put their bodies on the line to "get" the bank robber. And, of course, the bodies of the hostages.

There was a time, many years ago, when one of the missions of special forces was to attack and destroy hostage-holding terrorists while trying very hard to preserve innocent lives. But special forces operatives take a lot of time and money to train, and damn, if Yoni Netanyahu hadn't gone and gotten himself killed at Entebbe, maybe his brother would be less of a bastard. I doubt it, though, Bibi was Stern Gang before he was a politician. Whatever. It's so much easier to use high explosives, Hellfire missiles, and whatnot and just wipe out everybody in the place. Spec Ops guys have families, too, after all.

All bitterness and cynicism aside, though, governments play into the hands of terrorists when they commit indiscriminate terror themselves to fight them. They have become the monsters they fight, and the people on the ground remember. And what they remember is not that Ali took their mom hostage as a human shield (while putatively fighting for her "freedom&quot , they remember that Mom was blown away by the bombs or shells of the State on the other side. So the cycle continues. Thing about terrorists, they don't care much about personal survival, or the survival of anyone, really. So killing them is no big victory, and serves as no deterrent, nor does it stop the organization from committing more terror. Killing a bunch of civilians just to score an empty kill on a few bastards seems not to be cost-effective, although of course the dead civilians aren't our civilians, so who really cares, anyway? Oops, there I go being bitter and cynical again.

-- Mal

Lanius

(662 posts)
48. Israel doesn't have to bomb
Wed Nov 15, 2023, 12:46 AM
Nov 2023

Killing 12,000 civilians won’t help Israel in the long run.

gulliver

(13,985 posts)
26. He's mainly talking about them as indirect victims of Hamas
Sat Nov 11, 2023, 08:42 PM
Nov 2023

That is, of course, Blinken is not saying "Israel has killed too many civilians." He's saying too many Palestinian civilians have died. And they have. But each and every one of the civilian casualties is the fault of Hamas and other ISIS-like broken units.

It's very important that Israel do its best to preserve innocent human life. And it's good for the U.S. to stand for that principle, just like any other law-abiding country.

ecstatic

(35,075 posts)
32. The "humanitarian pause" sounds like psychological torture
Sun Nov 12, 2023, 01:12 PM
Nov 2023

Like a super violent version of musical chairs.

It's just a prolonging of a slow motion death sentence with extra time to feel terrorized.

The pause is NOT a solution if the ultimate plan is to bomb every structure in Gaza. It's time for Blinken to stop begging for agreement and to be firm with Netanyahu. Yes, we have your back, but we cannot afford to be at war with the entire Middle East. You want our money, you follow our rules. Period.

Donkees

(33,706 posts)
34. Mon, October 9th 2023 - Blinken deleted a social media post Monday morning that expressed support for a "cease-fire"
Sun Nov 12, 2023, 01:39 PM
Nov 2023
WASHINGTON (TND) — U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken deleted a social media post Monday morning that expressed support for a "cease-fire" in Israel after Palestinian militants invaded the nation late last week.


So Biden’s method to ending the May 2021 conflict was quiet diplomacy with Prime Minister Netanyahu. The US blocked United Nations resolutions and stood by Israel, to a point. Biden “held his tongue” when he learned that Netanyahu’s military operation had “no defined objective,” as journalist Franklin Foer recounts in his book The Last Politician. After four phone calls between the two leaders, Biden was blunt to Netanyahu: “Hey man, we’re out of runway here … It’s over.” And then it was.

https://www.vox.com/world-politics/2023/11/4/23945628/israel-hamas-war-gaza-ceasefire-history-explained
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