McNamara's Folly: The Use of Low-IQ Troops in the Vietnam War

[Kennah]

This is awful to watch.

[Hekate]

1. This is horrible to listen to. I seem to recall that Dick Cheney got a deferment via fatherhood...

And of course Dubya went into the TANG.

“McNamara’s Morons” is not a new low — just all of a piece with that abominable war.

[Kennah]

3. I had hopes while watching of "at least this ended", but it did not and it still goes on

[Irish_Dem]

5. I did too. But they did the same thing in Iraq.

[Irish_Dem]

4. Right, I immediately thought of W and Trump staying home.

While intellectually impaired men were sent as cannon fodder.

[Irish_Dem]

2. Wow. I never knew this was done in Viet Nam.

Most of the educators and psychologists insisted to McNamara that drafting low IQ men was folly.

A danger to self and others on the battlefield.

But McNamara refused to listen.

A very sad chapter in US military history.

[Kennah]

6. And it happens today

[Irish_Dem]

8. It is a danger to the rest of the troops as well.

Not fair to anyone.

[Chainfire]

7. I was in the service during that time.

This video presented information that was new to me, but answered a question I have carried around since boot-camp.

I was in Navy boot camp and there were twins that were assigned to our company. I felt so sorry for the two because they were really not military material, they were mentally and emotionally very immature. The must have functioned at about a six year old's level. It was obvious to everyone that they were incapable of learning the simplest tasks required of us in training. Because of their failures they were abused by the people (many of them natural bullies) in charge of our training. I was going to intervene in one of the abusive episodes when a buddy grabbed me by the arm and stopped me; saying, "Don't do it." I have felt guilty about it all of my life, and I should have stopped the incident even if I went to jail for it. I am now 70 years old and I am not over it yet....

I had no idea that there was such a program as the one described in the video, so now it makes sense as to why these kids were sent to train with us. All I can say is that it was a goddamn shame.

[AndyS]

9. Yes. I was there and saw it too.

Like you I 'let it go' and now remember. I remember.

[Irish_Dem]

12. I had no idea it was so prevalent.

These were men who needed to be in sheltered work settings not dodging bullets.

[Irish_Dem]

10. Chain,What would have happened to you if you challenged the authority of a sociopath drill sergeant?

Embarrassed him in front of the other soldiers by protecting the twins?

Jail for you is probably the best of the possible outcomes.

Perhaps your buddy's inner alarm system was working and he saved you from harm.

The shame belongs on the system who drafted mentally impaired men.
And ruthless, sociopathic drill sergeants who enjoy tormenting weaker men.

I am one who tends to speak out and protect others.
Doesn't always work out.

As I get older, I am more cautious.

[Chainfire]

15. I would have been tried for assaulting a petty officer. They would have thrown the book at me.

And I still should have done it.

[Irish_Dem]

18. I hear you if it only meant jail.

But it could have been worse.

[Chainfire]

22. There would certainly have been a ass-whipping, but when you are 19, you get over that fast.

Part of the reason that I didn't act would have been the knowledge that it would have extended the boot camp experience. I was getting married straight out of boot camp, and that was weighing heavily on me.

I never knew anyone who would have enjoyed extending boot camp. It only takes a few minutes of the very first day to know that you have entered a different world, where all of the rules have changed and you are a worthless piece of crap. All you want from day one is to graduate and get the hell out of there.

"Five more days and I'll be home, drinking beer and pissing foam."

[Irish_Dem]

26. Brutal beating, jail, cancelled wedding.

Possible dishonorable discharge following you around.

The other thing is that you would not have changed anything for the twins, not one iota.

Would the training leaders have changed their ways?

All of this is why your buddy pulled you back.

Maybe it would have been better to wait and get some buddies to help teach the twins some of the basics.
But their functional level was so low, I am not sure that would have been possible.

But I hear you, it was a moral dilemma.

It is like what I am feeling now about Ukraine.

Women and children being raped, tortured, murdered.
Freezing and starving.

I am sitting here stateside doing little to help them.

If I were younger I would go to Ukraine and help them.
Probably be in the way more than help.

[allegorical oracle]

19. Very well put. n/t

[AndyS]

11. 1969. Boot camp in Fort Bliss.

It didn't take long to figure out that we were separated by education level. All of us over 20 and with some education were put is one company. We qualified with the M14, last year's gun, while some others were issued M16s, the darling of Vietnam.

Us 'smart kids' were natural trouble makers. We knew how to think and to see utter stupidity when laid before us. "They" didn't care for us much.

Oh, and there is no level deep enough in hell to accept McNamara.

[Irish_Dem]

13. So what happened to the other company? With the younger, less educated men?

Including some cognitively impaired?

[AndyS]

14. Infantry. nt

[Irish_Dem]

16. Where did your company go? Not infantry?

Last edited Fri Dec 16, 2022, 06:49 PM - Edit history (1)

Edit to add: Or both companies went to infantry.
One with higher cognitive functioning.

[AndyS]

28. Basic was a beginning place. We weren't a "unit" at that point.

Once out of basic we, as individuals, were assigned to either an advanced individual training school (AIT) for those who had no militarily useful skill, or to a final duty station for those who had a civilian skill useful to the Army. I went to a motor pool in the First Army because I had a 2 year degree as an Auto Mechanic. Others were assigned to duty posts that suited their 'skill' without further cost to the Army.

Infantry and Artillery are combat skills and pretty much guaranteed combat duty. All others were far less likely to be shot at. Shit at yeah and often hit but not shot at.

Unlike the military now, we weren't considered a 'unit' and individuals were assigned to whatever Division/Battalion/Company that had a slot open for a (fill in the blank). There was no concern for 'unit cohesion' or comraderies. We were just pieces to be put where 'needed'.

I wound up at Ft Lee, VA as a Diesel Mechanic (though I knew nothing about Diesel motors). First Army, 544 Battalion, 260 Headquarters company. I figured out real fast that the system could be played. Volunteered for clerk typist and got a slot in the HQ company as Company Clerk. I answered to the CO and made out the duty roster and amazingly never got KP or Guard duty. Later I volunteered for a 13 week school to become a 92C20 (petroleum Lab specialist) and that entails a whole other story too long to post here.

It's a long story filled with humor, fear, irony and survivor's syndrome. Perhaps another time.

[Irish_Dem]

31. Thank you for the info.

So basic training was divided into groups based on intellectual level.

After basic, men were assigned to destinations based upon skills, education, experience.
Or need for more training.

So the lower functioning group got sent to infantry, were they were at more risk.

I don't think it is amazing you never got KP or GD. You were smart and perceptive.
Figured out the system early on. Got a relatively safe spot and answered only to the CO.
Then you went on what sounds like an adventure, but not a good one.

Yes if you would like to tell the story sometime, I would be interested.

I am a WWII buff, but now getting interested in the Viet Nam War.

I am an USAF brat, my dad flew combat in VN.
So I was raised in a military system but the AF seems quite different from Navy, Army, Marines.

The stories seem very important to me now. I never really knew the reality of the war at the time.

ETA I understand/respect totally why people don't want to talk about it.

[Biophilic]

17. The war was totally wrong to begin with, but this...

I seriously have no words. Struck dumb with tears in my eyes. These people are/were monsters.

[allegorical oracle]

20. Would seem that this happens in any war. Can recall my dad (a WW II vet) saying they called

them "cannon fodder." My boyfriend at the time of 'Nam was a Natl Merit Scholar. He went to Canada and my dad was outraged; I joined the protest movement. But it was an absurd conflict (never a congressionally declared war), and LBJ knew better.

[Doc Sportello]

21. As I remember they were called McNamara's 88s

Because that was the IQ level they had to at least have to be drafted. I didn't watch the whole video so maybe that was mentioned. Does anyone else remember that term?

Just one of many, many despicable aspects of our involvement in Vietnam, along with the Phoenix program, My Lai, and on and on.

[Chainfire]

23. The speaker in the video mentioned an I.Q. of 40.

I don't know if that was accurate, or that I even heard it correctly. It seems awful low even for a special program.

[Doc Sportello]

25. Thanks

Of course that was more than 50 years ago, but 88 was the number I remember.

Thanks also for your other posts on the thread. Very informative.

[UTUSN]

24. I just heard about this a couple of years ago. Illusions from my youth falling away.

[ProfessorGAC]

27. There's A Recent Movie Reference Connected

In The Bourne Legacy, chemically constructed super soldier Jeremy Renner, is revealed to be a severely mentally challenged person.
He was picked for "the program" because if the "juice" worked on him, it would work on everybody.
It makes him a very sympathetic character because he asked for none of it.

[CousinIT]

29. I have heard & read about this. It isn't talked about enough. n/t

[doc03]

30. From what we hear that is what Russia is doing, they take anyone off the street.

They put them in the army, give them almost no training and send them to Ukraine to die.

[Hekate]

32. Russia is using press-gangs in at least some situations. Given we have video ...

… of some of the street-captures, it’s probably widespread.